Garp_is_dead wrote:

I agree with you on the fact that in this kind of circumstances, the politically correct aspect is often being pushed too far. I think the abbreviation "jap" is not insulting in itself. Few people made it dirty using it the wrong way in the past and somehow I feel that censuring the use of this term is like proving them right. That being said, it is easy to speak one's mind without using the term "jap", I avoid using it not to create useless controversies, but somehow I think it is not right.

A lot of words/terms were derogatory when they were first coined. The fact that the original meaning/intentions were lost or diminished with time does not make them right. Maybe letting the younger generation know why a term is not preferable is better than letting its true meaning slide.

thtl wrote:

A lot of words/terms were derogatory when they were first coined. The fact that the original meaning/intentions were lost or diminished with time does not make them right. Maybe letting the younger generation know why a term is not preferable is better than letting its true meaning slide.

It is the abbreviation of "japanese", it was only derogatory because people who used it in America were denigrating, but that doesn't mean japanese people should be ashamed of the abbreviation of the word reffering to their own country/people. You see what I mean ?

The comparison with the word "nig***" is not relevant to my opinion. It is not the abbreviation of the name of a specific people living in a specific country. It was invented with the idea that black people were inferior.

"Jap" was used by people thinking that way, but the word doesn't carry this meaning.

For example in France, during WWII, the term "jap" was not really used this way, denigrating people used the term "les nippon" to say "japanese people". However we couldn't censure the use of the word, it would have been much more offensive, because "nippon" means Japan. The fact that in France the word was used offensively by some people shouldn't add any meaning to the word itself.
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Garp_is_dead wrote:

It is the abbreviation of "japanese", it was only derogatory because people who used it in America were denigrating, but that doesn't mean japanese people should be ashamed of the abbreviation of the word reffering to their own country/people. You see what I mean ? The comparison with the word "nig***" is not relevant to my opinion. It is not the abbreviation of the name of a specific people living in a specific country. It was invented with the idea that black people were inferior. "Jap" was used by people thinking that way, but the word doesn't carry this meaning. For example in France, during WWII, the term "jap" was not really used this way, denigrating people used the term "les nippon" to say "japanese people". However we couldn't censure the use of the word, it would have been much more offensive, because "nippon" means Japan. The fact that in France the word was used offensively by some people shouldn't add any meaning to the word itself.

I understand the point you are trying to make. Another example would be the word 'chink' - used predominately in Britain. This word is also an abbreviation (of 'Chinese') much in the same way as 'Jap'. However this abbreviation came not from the need to shorten a word, but was intended to express superiority over the Chinese. If the word 'Jap' was created in the same way, it was meant to be derogatory. The fact that not all persons using this word had disrespect in mind still does not make this word right. See what I mean?

People of the Nisei generation grew up in this kind of atmosphere. Pretty easy to see why they would consider the term offensive, ne?

gaijinmark wrote:

People of the Nisei generation grew up in this kind of atmosphere. Pretty easy to see why they would consider the term offensive, ne?

To me if people find it offensive then it is. Period.

If done my mistake it is understandable,
but an elbow in the nose whether intentional or by accident hurts as much in my opinion.
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gaijinmark wrote:

People of the Nisei generation grew up in this kind of atmosphere. Pretty easy to see why they would consider the term offensive, ne?

Well you just illustrate what I saied, it is a simple abbreviation, used by people with nasty feelings.

Quote:

To me if people find it offensive then it is. Period.

Exactly, this is why japanese people's opinion will allways be the most relevant. I was responding to puckman who saied his japanese friend did'nt find it insulting. There isn't a one and only japanese opinion.

Quote:

If done my mistake it is understandable, but an elbow in the nose whether intentional or by accident hurts as much in my opinion.

Still I'm not sure an unintentional insult and an intentional one do have the same effect, the pain is not physical.


Anyway this is why I saied I would not use the term, just to be sure not to harm anyone and not to create useless controversies. But it makes me feel like racist people who used the term Jap somehow "won" the battle, on an ideological point of view. The rehabilitation of the term "jap" as a simple abbreviation of "japanese" would have been a great victory over racism.

But since I know my point of view is not shared by the doxa I wouldn't use the term, as it is not worth arguing and harming people to my opinion.[/b]
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thtl wrote:

The fact that not all persons using this word had disrespect in mind still does not make this word right. See what I mean?

Exactly.

The notion that because it doesn't affect your own little part of the world makes it acceptable is wrong, particularly for a international site like this.

Quote:

The fact that not all persons using this word had disrespect in mind still does not make this word right. See what I mean? Wink

From wikipedia:

Quote:

according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "Jap" as an abbreviation for "Japanese" was in colloquial use in London around 1880.[3] An example of benign usage was the previous naming of Boondocks Road in Jefferson County, Texas, originally named "Jap Road" when it was built in 1905 to honor a popular local rice farmer from Japan.[4]

It seems that the term "jap" was not originally denigrating, this is why I can't help thinking it is sad that some racist people could make a word that simply meant "japanese" an insulting word.

However as I saied it is easy to avoid saying "jap", so there's no use risking harming people, even if I think it is strange.[/quote]
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Garp_is_dead wrote:

The rehabilitation of the term "jap" as a simple abbreviation of "japanese" would have been a great victory over racism.

It's gonna take a whole lot longer than just 60+ years to get over it, I think.

I can't believe that this is actually a topic that seems debatable.

And this notion that SOME Japanese people aren't offended makes a difference in some way, makes it even MORE offensive to me! So what, perhaps those Japanese people just recently emigrated here. Or they're native Japanese and not Japanese-American. Or grew up in a region where
the use of this word wasn't tolerated.

The fact is, I'm offended by it and not because I have thin skin either. I'm offended because I have personal experiences being called this word.

That's all that should matter. If it doesn't affect you personally, then you shouldn't have any more to say!
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bmwracer wrote:

It's gonna take a whole lot longer than just 60+ years to get over it, I think.

Yes, I also think it is just a matter of time.
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Garp_is_dead wrote:

From wikipedia: Quote: according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "Jap" as an abbreviation for "Japanese" was in colloquial use in London around 1880.[3] An example of benign usage was the previous naming of Boondocks Road in Jefferson County, Texas, originally named "Jap Road" when it was built in 1905 to honor a popular local rice farmer from Japan.[4] It seems that the term "jap" was not originally denigrating, this is why I can't help thinking it is sad that some racist people could make a word that simply meant "japanese" an insulting word.

The same can be said for the word "Nigger." From Wiki:

Quote:

The word originated as a term used in a neutral context to refer to black people, as a variation of the Spanish/Portuguese noun negro, a descendant of the Latin adjective niger, meaning "black".

Quote:

Although criticized for its pejorative meaning since the 1800s, the term remained in general use in much of the world until around the 1960's - 1970s. It retains a place in popular culture and slang, however it is widely considered to be grossly offensive in mainstream English usage.

I wouldn't hold my breath on this word being accepted into the mainstream any time soon...

More like never.

kazuya_ wrote:

I can't believe that this is actually a topic that seems debatable. And this notion that SOME Japanese people aren't offended makes a difference in some way, makes it even MORE offensive to me! So what, perhaps those Japanese people just recently emigrated here. Or they're native Japanese and not Japanese-American. Or grew up in a region where the use of this word wasn't tolerated. The fact is, I'm offended by it and not because I have thin skin either. I'm offended because I have personal experiences being called this word. That's all that should matter. If it doesn't affect you personally, then you shouldn't have any more to say!

Look, In uk I've been called "frenchy" both in a friendly way and in an insulting way by different people. And still I'm not militating for the suppression of this word.

My point is not saying that people shouldn't be offended in the present time, things are what they are and we cannot change them.

But I think that perhaps, if the word "jap" had not been demonized you wouldn't even have been called that way.
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bmwracer wrote:

I wouldn't hold my breath on this word being accepted into the mainstream any time soon... More like never.

It's the same you're right. Except that for "Jap" the change is much more close to us in time, and this is why it still feels strange.

edit: actually there is a difference, in the 1800's black were "officially" considered as inferior, even if it was "neutral" in the context, it was actually insulting for our modern point of view.

The word Jap was not implying any inferiority when it was created.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to use the word Jap, I just think it is interesting to see how astonishing is the fact that a neutral word referring to a population became a negative one, in a certain part of the world.
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Do you really believe that's a valid comparison? Were a whole generation of French people rounded up by their own government and striped of their homes and property?

And why is this debate going on at a website that is supposed to be appreciative of Japanese culture?
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kazuya_ wrote:

Do you really believe that's a valid comparison? Were a whole generation of French people rounded up by their own government and striped of their homes and property? And why is this debate going on at a website that is supposed to be appreciative of Japanese culture?

I didn't say anything depreciative of japanese people/ or culture.

Actually some french people were striped of their homes and property by french government during WW2 but I don't see what it has to do with the word "frenchy" or "jap". If Japanese people had not been striped out of their homes you would have think that the word "jap" is more tolerable?
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I am still unsure regarding the debate on this topic.

IMO: There are people who feel like shit when the word 'Jap' is used. That, you can't change.
If the word is used and they hear it, they get all 'teary eyed', and salty. All the advice that I can give is to just respect what people of Japanese ancestory feels when the word 'Jap' is used. Plain and simple.
On the other hand, there are the ones who don't give a shit at all when being called 'Jap'. (Like me) I atest that it is probably due to the fact that I was born and raised in Hawaii - a cultural melting pot. So I guess that's why I am the way I am.

Another topic: To those who want to compare the word 'Jap' to 'Nigger', I can be your perfect example.
I have a LOT of African Americans friends. They call my 'nigga' (even though I'm not black), and I call them 'Nigga' with NO repercussions at all.

Why do you think that is?! They don't give a shit because I know them personally and we are close.

Now, do you think I'd say 'Nigga' to African American people
who I DON'T know?! You must be kidding me.


Bottom line: If you think saying "Jap" is okay, say it to your peers who accept it, and don't say it to people who are not associates of your's.

For all the dummies out there, it goes like this, you can walk in your house with muddy shoes, but would you walk into your friends house with the same old muddy shoes?! -I think (and hope) not.

End of story.
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^ I can live with that.

Though, California is quite the melting pot as well, but I don't think people here are indifferent to the word "Jap."

Question: have your African-American friends ever called you "Jap?" And if not, have you ever asked them why or why not?

Just curious.

bmwracer wrote:

Question: have your African-American friends ever called you "Jap?" And if not, have you ever asked them why or why not?

No they have not ever called me Jap.
I haven't asked them because why should I bring it up? It won't make sense to anyway.
They call me 'nigga' because (I guess) they see me as one of them, althought I'm the only non-African American person in their crew. I don't argue with it, I just go with the flow, becuase they're my friends.

Back to topic: I would never call a black man a 'nigga' just to try to fit in or by being naive and thinking it's okay to do so because of all the 'rap' music that is around us.
-People like that are ignorant as are the people who don't bother to think about how using 'Jap' in such a free manner may offend some.

The bottom line on what I'm trying to say is, if people are going to use derogatory words/slang/whatever, just make sure that they use it towards people who don't give a #@%* (like associates/friends/etc).
But to think it's okay and use it on a complete stranger. Uh, NO!
It's all about being respectful.


(sorry bmw, but after I typed out the reply to your question, i had to further elaborate on my prior post)
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I am curious...

Do people find the word "Japa" to be offensive?

For many years I have been aware that "Jap" is derogatory, and I have heard it used as such (mostly in older movies).

I had never heard "Japa" until a ���{�l used it while chatting with me online. I liked the word, and have used it a few times, while talking to Japanese people I had some rapport with (also online).

So I'm curious if it is offensive to any section of the world. It is hard to know when the conversation is an online chat, especially as Japanese natives are often very polite, and if I accidentally made offense, would likely not call me out on it.

I never asked, because the term was taught to me by ���{�l, and as such it didn't occur to me that it could be offensive, until I saw this post about "Jap", and how sometimes people from different generations in different cultures can have different idea's about the political correctness of words (as in Japanese natives of a certain age not thinking or perhaps even considering "Jap" as offensive) and how "Jap" was originally a non derogatory abbreviation.

In the USA, most people know "Jap" is derogatory/unPC/racist. I will say that there are some who don't, and use the term in ignorance of it's negative connotation. For instance, my Grandmother, who has lived in a tiny town in rural Oregon all her life, uses "orientals" to refer to Asians/people of Asian heritage (I've never heard her say Jap, but I wouldn't be surprised if she did). I cringe inside when she says it, but I know full well that she is in no way a racist person, and intends no offense.. She is only ignorant of the impact that word can have.

And my other Grandmother, who lives in a wealthy area in Southern California, and lived in Hawaii for many years, and would be seen as much more cosmopolitan (her English grammar is very proper, about as different as it gets from my rural Grandma) also uses "orientals". She is the same, not meaning or knowing that it is offensive. However, I am certain she would not use "Jap".

One more thing I would add to the discussion about offensive words like "Jap".......

Intention and interpretation are often misconstrued, so there will always be gaps in communication. The best we can do is educate ourselves, and be responsible for and aware of our impact on one another, and be aware and forgiving in kind, of peoples perspectives, intentions and culture shortsightedness. It is a natural response to be conditioned by ones culture! Ideally we connect, and share out minds and hearts, both as free minded individuals, and as personifications of our cultural world view. But we are not merely products of our culture, we are also spiritual beings possessing wonderful potentials to evolve in our communications.

LOL (bit of a rant there)....

I didn't read all 25 pages of this thread, but I feel I have a clear enough wold view/opinion of the word "Jap", and how the many layers this type of 20th century etymology can have different cultural and personal interpretations.

But I am very curious, in the same context as this thread..... is there any consensus on "Japa"?