Joined: 19 Jan 2011 Posts: 149 Location: Houston, TX Country:
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:50 am Post subject:
7th-key wrote:
^ well, thank you for the clarification!
I think I finally understand what the dictionary means by "one's real enemy is elsewhere."
For Mitsuhide, his enemy is supposed to be Mori Terumoto. However, Mitsuhide comes to the realization that he has to kill Nobunaga or else he would be killed or banished sooner or later, therefore his "real enemy is elsewhere (Honnoji)."
Still, the dictionary should've been clearer than that
Joined: 19 Jan 2011 Posts: 149 Location: Houston, TX Country:
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:57 am Post subject:
bmwracer wrote:
Just finished watching Episode 5 with the subs.
Most of it was given away in the previews for the Taiga back in December and early January...
I thought all the premonition stuff with the stamp, bowl, etc., was pushing it a bit, but I didn't mind too much.
Go's realization at the end was heartbreaking, though...
Can't wait for Episode 6.
I thought about editing out the preview part at the end of each episode because there is just so much spoiler in those scenes. That's easy with the hardsubbed vid but impossible with the softsubs (even if I don't translate the lines, people can still guess pretty easily), so I dropped that idea.
NHK's Taiga series have always been showing major spoilers before and during the airing of their series. Maybe because they assume most viewers are at least somewhat familiar with the history? I don't know, just a guess.
I thought about editing out the preview part at the end of each episode because there is just so much spoiler in those scenes. That's easy with the hardsubbed vid but impossible with the softsubs (even if I don't translate the lines, people can still guess pretty easily), so I dropped that idea.
NHK's Taiga series have always been showing major spoilers before and during the airing of their series. Maybe because they assume most viewers are at least somewhat familiar with the history? I don't know, just a guess.
Joined: 30 Jan 2009 Posts: 409 Location: lombok island Country:
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject:
Liubeibei wrote:
I thought about editing out the preview part at the end of each episode because there is just so much spoiler in those scenes. That's easy with the hardsubbed vid but impossible with the softsubs (even if I don't translate the lines, people can still guess pretty easily), so I dropped that idea.
just let the preview like it was
i have a question for all of you, about Tokugawa Hidetada
is there any concubines he has?? or his wive is only Gou ???
Joined: 19 Jan 2011 Posts: 149 Location: Houston, TX Country:
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject:
ingesz wrote:
i did, but there's not mention any concubines ...
so i ask you, if there any source that mention it ...
isn't it very unique in that times if only has 1 wive?
Well this is gonna disappoint you then :3
According to the JP wiki on Hidetada:
First wife: Ohime (���P), Oda Nobukatsu (�D�c�M�Y)'s eldest daughter, later adopted by Hideyoshi, married Hidetada (age 12) in year 1590. She was said to be 6 years old at the time. Soon after, they divorced because Hideyoshi and Nobukatsu didn't get along well. She died in 1591. No children between them, of course.
Second wife: Gou (�]), who gave birth to 2 sons and 5 girls, including eldest daughter Senhime (��P), second son Iemitsu (�ƌ�), and third son Tadanaga (����).
Concubine: Shizuka (��), who gave birth to Hidetada's 4th son, Hoshina (because he was later adopted by the Hoshina clan) Masayuki (�ۉȐ��V).
Unnamed servent (?) girl: gave birth to Hidetada's eldest son Chomaru (����), who was said to be killed by Gou o.O at 9 months of age.
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1888 Location: Bunkyo-ku Country:
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject:
Liubeibei wrote:
Well this is gonna disappoint you then :3
According to the JP wiki on Hidetada:
First wife: Ohime (���P), Oda Nobukatsu (�D�c�M�Y)'s eldest daughter, later adopted by Hideyoshi, married Hidetada (age 12) in year 1590. She was said to be 6 years old at the time. Soon after, they divorced because Hideyoshi and Nobukatsu didn't get along well. She died in 1591. No children between them, of course.
Second wife: Gou (�]), who gave birth to 2 sons and 5 girls, including eldest daughter Senhime (��P), second son Iemitsu (�ƌ�), and third son Tadanaga (����).
Concubine: Shizuka (��), who gave birth to Hidetada's 4th son, Hoshina (because he was later adopted by the Hoshina clan) Masayuki (�ۉȐ��V).
Unnamed servent (?) girl: gave birth to Hidetada's eldest son Chomaru (����), who was said to be killed by Gou o.O at 9 months of age.
Thank you, Liubeibei! That's Japanese WIKI's version, now let me share informations I got from this Japanese historical book I just bought in Kinokuniya^^
Ogou to Tokugawa Hidetada ~101 no Nazo~ by Kawaguchi Sunao.
According to this book, for Hidetada, Gou is his first wife. With Ohime, Nobukatsu's daughter, they were only engaged but didn't get the chance to get married. So, Ohime was only Hidetada's fiancee (probably coz they were still very young).
Before I continue, let's define "concubine". Before I became a taiga fangirl, I always thought "concubine" can be considered as a second wife. But then, apparently they never had any wedding ceremonies, so I realized "concubine" can't be considered as "wife".
After watching many taiga dramas, I started to understand that as long as the married lord sleep together with another woman, then keep them in the castle, the woman would automatically become "concubine", with or without child. That's my understanding of "concubine". Seem like in this era, having a "concubine" doesn't mean the man committed an affair.
But how about those women who did a one-nighter with a married man, but they never see each other again? Is that called a "concubine"? In "Toshiie to Matsu", Toshiie slept with another woman, but she was definitely not considered as a "concubine", and Toshiie admitted that he had an affair and apologized to his wife. In "Komyo ga Tsuji", Yamauchi Kazutoyo did the same thing, he had an affair and the woman is not considered as "concubine". Or, does "concubine" only applies for feudal lords (daimyou) and not for vassals/retainers-level?
The reason I'm elaborating this, is because Hidetada never kept any "extra woman" at all in the castle. He slept with those women, yes, but due to his fear to Gou, he never kept those women in the castle, and he never openly admit that they are his concubines. He did all the deeds secretly from Gou. Really equal to what we call "having an affair" in the modern days.
As Liubeibei mentioned, Hidetada had children from other 2 women. According to the "Ogou to Tokugawa Hidetada ~101 no Nazo~", Hidetada's first son, Chomaru's mother was thought to be Gou, in the beginning. But tracing back to the birth year, it was impossible because Chomaru's birth year was the same as Katsu-hime's birth year, Gou and Hidetada's third daughter. That's why, it is speculated by the historians, that Chomaru is Hidetada's child from another woman. (although if I were a historian, I would investigate more on the birth years of Chomaru and Katsu-hime, because there might still be chances that their birth years are wrong and that Chomaru could really be Gou's child! =P) And yes, Chomaru died in 9 months of age.
After the birth of Gou and Hidetada's second son, Tadanaga, Hidetada had an affair with the palace maid, Shizu. When she gave birth to a baby boy, Hidetada immediately sent her and the baby away far from Edo, and kept it a secret from Gou. Hidetada asked Takeda Shingen's daughter to take care of Shizu and his baby at her home.
Only after Gou passed away, that Hidetada called this child, Hoshina Masayuki, back to Edo castle. The third shogun, Iemitsu, Hoshina's half-brother gets along very well with Hoshina. (while seem like Iemitsu hates his birth brother, Tadanaga, to the core)
Later, Hoshina Masayuki became one of the most trusted retainer for his nephew, the 4th shogun, Ietsuna.
There had been so many speculations of why Hidetada had to sent Shizu and his child away. One of the speculation said, that Gou killed Chomaru. And so Hidetada was afraid that Gou would kill this child too. This speculation was the root of another "legend" that Gou is an overly-jealous and evil woman. She didn't want to let any woman give birth to Hidetada's son, before she herself give birth to the successor.
But most of historians would deny this legend/theory, because there were also other anecdotes which shows that Gou is actually a kind(yasashii) mother/wife, like when she decided to accompany her 5 years old daughter, Sen-hime, all the way to Osaka, to be wedded to Toyotomi Hideyori, Chacha's son.
Most of all, many historians speculated that Hidetada won't have 7 childrens with Gou, if she's a scary woman, as the one theory says. In fact, this book I'm reading "101 no Nazo", mentioned a few times how Hidetada spent most of his life loving just one woman, his wife, Gou... unlike his father, Ieyasu, who loved his concubines more than his wife.
So... does the 2 women Hidetada slept with, can be considered as "concubine"? I would say, no... because Hidetada didn't keep them in the castle. He had an affair twice. That's my conclusion^^ And with all the historical facts saying that Hidetada is a very sober and honest man, and naturally kind. I choose to believe that he really loves Gou, sincerely. And the reason why he sent Shizu and the baby away, was just out of respect for his wife, Gou^^
("AOI-Tokugawa Sandai" told the story even much better! That Hidetada had affairs simply because his father, and his vassals, told him too. And kept saying "Lord, if you don't take a concubine, people will think you have some kind of illness!", LOL.)
Oh, the "101 no Nazo" book, also says that Tokugawa Iemitsu MIGHT NOT be Gou's child. There are several theories about Iemitsu's birth parents. Some says, he's the son of Ieyasu and Kasuga-no-Tsubone. Some says, he's the son of Hidetada and Kasuga-no-Tsubone. Wow! XD
Taihen desu ne... so many blanks to fill in the history^^
Sorry for the long explanation (essay?)! I'm a big fan of Gou-Hidetada couple (the real people AND the TV adaptations), hehe _________________
Joined: 19 Jan 2011 Posts: 149 Location: Houston, TX Country:
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject:
Thank you for all the information, yanie! So many books to read, so little time lol.
Regarding concubines, I agree that they're considered "secondary wives" as well, just not the "main" one. Though I believe they had to have a ceremony of some sort to be considered concubines. One-night stands, of course, wouldn't fall into this category (which I suppose the unnamed woman who gave birth to Chomaru was one, like you said).
The reason I put Shizu (so it's Shizu not Shizuka huh? I just saw the kanji as the same as Yoshitsune's lover, Shizuka XD) as a concubine is because on the JP sites she's said to be a sokushitsu (����) of Hidetada's. According to the sites, Hidetada sent Komatsumaru (Hoshina Masayuki) and Shizu off to the Hoshina clan about 6 years after his birth. This might show that Gou really wasn't a jealous woman (or maybe because this was Hidetada's 4th son, unlike Chomaru who was born before Iemitsu).
As for vassals, they could have sokushitsu too. so vassals could have concubines as long as sokushitsu translates to concubine (yahoo! dictionary's definition of sokushitsu: 'a nobleman's concubine [mistress]'). This is one interesting word which I am sure will come up soon in Gou...thanks to Hideyoshi, lol
BTW, just wanna say I love conversations like this [/i]
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1888 Location: Bunkyo-ku Country:
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject:
Liubeibei wrote:
Thank you for all the information, yanie! So many books to read, so little time lol.
Nee~? I found so many books on Tokugawa Hidetada, fiction and non-fiction, and I want to read them all!!^v^ Esp. this novel titled "Shukumei no Kyoudai ~ Tokugawa Hidetada to Yuki Hideyasu", hwaaaa... I love Hideyasu too! (Onimusha-Dawn of Dreams' main character! )
I'm a fan of Gou-Hidetada couple, but actually I'm more of a fan of Hidetada and the Tokugawa brothers
Liubeibei wrote:
Regarding concubines, I agree that they're considered "secondary wives" as well, just not the "main" one. Though I believe they had to have a ceremony of some sort to be considered concubines.
Really? Never seen that depicted in any TV/movie adaptations so far, though Did you find written theories on that?
Liubeibei wrote:
The reason I put Shizu (so it's Shizu not Shizuka huh? I just saw the kanji as the same as Yoshitsune's lover, Shizuka XD) as a concubine is because on the JP sites she's said to be a sokushitsu (����) of Hidetada's. According to the sites, Hidetada sent Komatsumaru (Hoshina Masayuki) and Shizu off to the Hoshina clan about 6 years after his birth. This might show that Gou really wasn't a jealous woman (or maybe because this was Hidetada's 4th son, unlike Chomaru who was born before Iemitsu).
Which site did you read?
According to the JP Wiki page of Hoshina Masayuki: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/�ۉȐ��V
He was born at the home of Takeda Shingen's daughter. And then 6 years later, due to Takeda's daughter's relation, the boy was managed to be the adoptive son of one of Takeda Shingen's vassal, Hoshina. It was Takeda's daughter who brought the boy to the Hoshina clan.
You've watched AOI-Tokugawa Sandai yourself right? Hidetada sent pregnant-Shizu away from the castle. Since I was curious on how true this adaptation is, I was checking everywhere about Hidetada-Shizu-Hoshina Masayuki's historical facts, to match it up, and AOI was really faithful to the written history. AOI is really the most historically accurate adaptation to date, imho^^
Liubeibei wrote:
As for vassals, they could have sokushitsu too. so vassals could have concubines as long as sokushitsu translates to concubine (yahoo! dictionary's definition of sokushitsu: 'a nobleman's concubine [mistress]'). This is one interesting word which I am sure will come up soon in Gou...thanks to Hideyoshi, lol
Chacha is really a different kind of concubine, huh? Usually daughter of a daimyou like her should be a wife of another lord. Concubines are usually palace maids or women with the lower-level background, right?
I wonder why did Chacha(the real person) decide to become Hideyoshi's concubine, after everything he did to her parents? XD But oh well, that's another discussion. Maybe later when the taiga reached around Ep19, hehe.
Liubeibei wrote:
BTW, just wanna say I love conversations like this
Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1888 Location: Bunkyo-ku Country:
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:47 pm Post subject:
The first 20 Q&A of the "Ogou to Tokugawa Hidetada - 101 no Nazo" by Kawaguchi Sunao.
Q001. What's Ogou's role in the Shokuho and Edo era?
Q002. What kind of era did Ogou live in?
Q003. Which anecdote that shows Ogou's kindness?
Q004. What were Ogou's other names?
Q005. Where did Ogou spent her youth at?
Q006. What was the pedigree of the Azai clan like?
Q007. What kind of Sengoku daimyou, Ogou's father, Azai Nagamasa was?
Q008. Who are Ogou's siblings and relatives?
Q009. Ogou's mother, Lady Oichi, is the most beautiful woman in the Sengoku era?
Q010. Lady Oichi is not Oda Nobunaga's younger sister?
Q011. What was the scale and construction of the Omi-Odani Castle of the Azai clan?
Q012. When did Azai Nagamasa and Lady Oichi get married?
Q013. Who did Nobunaga order to be Lady Oichi's close aide?
Q014. Why did Azai Nagamasa broke the alliance and attacked Nobunaga?
Q015. How did Lady Oichi let Nobunaga know about her husband's treachery?
Q016. What was the Anegawa Battle (Azai-Asakura vs Oda-Tokugawa)?
Q017. How did Nagamasa and his father, Hisamasa, reached their last moments?
Q018. Is it true that Nobunaga abused Nagamasa and Hisamasa's skulls?
Q019. Why Ogou's older brother, Azai Manpukumaru, was killed?
Q020. What happened to the Azai clan after the fall of Odani castle?
The answers and explanations in this book are based on many historians' findings (letters, paintings, etc).
I'm planning to translate answers for Q003, Q010 and Q018. But if there are any other questions you'd like to know the answers of, please let me know ^_^
After Ep10 is aired, I'll translate the next 10 Q&A-s which are mostly on Shibata Katsuie, Gou's stepfather^^ ...and so on, as the next episodes aired... as to not give much spoilers for those who aren't familiar to Sengoku history^^ _________________
Joined: 30 Jan 2009 Posts: 409 Location: lombok island Country:
Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject:
yanie_chan wrote:
I'm planning to translate answers for Q003, Q010 and Q018. But if there are any other questions you'd like to know the answers of, please let me know ^_^
After Ep10 is aired, I'll translate the next 10 Q&A-s which are mostly on Shibata Katsuie, Gou's stepfather^^ ...and so on, as the next episodes aired... as to not give much spoilers for those who aren't familiar to Sengoku history^^
i'll witing for this
Q1: what is the historical reason why iyeyasu choose Gou to be Hidetada's wive??
----
finally, i've finish watching episode 5... very very very very very sad episode...
in the ending scene, i believe now that Nobunaga is Gou's first love... ...
Q2: what about Rikimaru and Bomaru are they dead at Honnoji too??
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Register
Log in
I'm a big fan of Gou-Hidetada couple (the real people AND the TV adaptations), hehe 
[/i] 
