I am trying to learn japanese from the very basics, so should I learn to speak first or to write?

ATong201 wrote:

I am trying to learn japanese from the very basics, so should I learn to speak first or to write?

Speak, of course.


How did you learn your native language? Of course you couldn't read and write before you could speak.

Secondary languages should be treated the same.
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I'm new to this forum, but I disagree. Learn hiragana at the very least. Using computer flash programs you can get to a reading level in a matter of days.

Echo9 wrote:

I'm new to this forum, but I disagree. Learn hiragana at the very least. Using computer flash programs you can get to a reading level in a matter of days.

I just think it's better to learn to speak and comprehend a little before getting into the reading and writing stages.
Although the ability to read and write is a definite plus, it doesn't help if you can't understand what you're trying to read or write. Just my take.

On a related note, this is the first time I have met someone who feels that learning to read and write before speaking is more important.

I find this interesting. Other users, if you have something to say, please drop by and opine.
I'm looking forward to reading all opinons.
(Especially the opposing ones)
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99% of Japanese classes, and language classes that involve a different script from that of the speakers involve, usually entail speech-first ideology rather than write-first.

This is introduce the speaker to the language.

After about 3 weeks of getting the sounds and patterns down of Japanese, you may learn hiragana to help you advance.

I agree with ahochaude almost 100% ^0^

yume wrote:

99% of Japanese classes, and language classes that involve a different script from that of the speakers involve, usually entail speech-first ideology rather than write-first. This is introduce the speaker to the language. After about 3 weeks of getting the sounds and patterns down of Japanese, you may learn hiragana to help you advance. I agree with ahochaude almost 100% ^0^

In my class, we learned speech AND writing at the same time. If didn't already know my hiragana/katakana, I would have been struggling like my classmates who came in knowing nothing.

But yeah, I digress. I'd say speech should come first because you might know how to read stuff, but you won't understand any of it like aho said. I'm in my second semester of Japanese and I can read a lot of stuff, but I still don't know what the exact meaning of the sentences are since my grammar is not there yet.

The first lesson I ever had started with 30mins of speaking/listening. Simple phrases and greetings. Then we started writing/reading. The course I'm currently doing aims to build up all four skills (listening/reading/writing/speaking) at the same time.

Five months into the course, and we are still building on all 4 skills at the same time. I personally thinking that building upon all 4 skills is vital, as they are all required in order to fully learn a new language. What the teachers on my course were afraid of, is to get us used to one skill over another. This may seem very strict, but the results are amazing. I've heard of people going over to japan and staying for a couple of years, and in that time they pick up the language and can speak it very well. However, their writing ability is poor and full of errors. On the other hand, if you start off on reading/writing, then you naturally pick up the speaking part (after going to the country).

Personally, I think that just learning to read and write a new language is sufficient for the first year of study. Speaking/listening is something anyone can pick up, given the right conditions (i.e. being in the country, being around people who speak the language). However, reading/writing is something you need to be taught, and hence should be given higher priority. It's like a child growing up, they learn to speak naturally from listening to adults around them. However, you send that child to school to learn how to read and write. If you didn't, that child would grow up being able to speak the language, but not write. Where I come from, we call that being stupid.

So long story short, I think that all the skills should be built upon right from the beginning. However, if need be, reading and writing can take precedence over speaking and listening, at least for the initial year or two of learning.

When I learned english(english is my second, Japanese is my first language)I kind of knew how to write but I was ignored for not being able to speak the language. I think speaking is always fist to communicate to another person and then when you are able to talk, then you can develop the writing skills....talking is more important...writing is important but it's second....I speak fluently but have trouble writing in Japanse with those chinese characters....and I really got an advantage by learning how to talk....it takes more of a while but it's more worth it.

Littleangel91356 wrote:

When I learned english(english is my second, Japanese is my first language)I kind of knew how to write but I was ignored for not being able to speak the language. I think speaking is always fist to communicate to another person and then when you are able to talk, then you can develop the writing skills....talking is more important...writing is important but it's second....I speak fluently but have trouble writing in Japanse with those chinese characters....and I really got an advantage by learning how to talk....it takes more of a while but it's more worth it.

I agree.

I guess what we're ALL trying to tell you is this:

1. For what purpose do you want Japanese?

2. Study in a method that will help you reach your goal.


I took Japanese at a university which was designed for various leveled students, so we didn't learn hiragana until the 2nd week because the teacher had found it confounded a lot of people, haha, and after 30 years, this was her conclusion.

In my own private study, I did everything full-on, especially grammar/reading and speech--writing was important, but I still can recognize some 2,000 characters and read them...but can probably only write about 1,500 properly.

If you want to be fluent in every single way, then by all means start learning everything at once (with kanji being after hiragana and katakana, or you might cry).

anoney wrote:

The first lesson I ever had started with 30mins of speaking/listening. Simple phrases and greetings. Then we started writing/reading. The course I'm currently doing aims to build up all four skills (listening/reading/writing/speaking) at the same time. Five months into the course, and we are still building on all 4 skills at the same time. I personally thinking that building upon all 4 skills is vital, as they are all required in order to fully learn a new language. What the teachers on my course were afraid of, is to get us used to one skill over another. This may seem very strict, but the results are amazing. I've heard of people going over to japan and staying for a couple of years, and in that time they pick up the language and can speak it very well. However, their writing ability is poor and full of errors. On the other hand, if you start off on reading/writing, then you naturally pick up the speaking part (after going to the country). Personally, I think that just learning to read and write a new language is sufficient for the first year of study. Speaking/listening is something anyone can pick up, given the right conditions (i.e. being in the country, being around people who speak the language). However, reading/writing is something you need to be taught, and hence should be given higher priority. It's like a child growing up, they learn to speak naturally from listening to adults around them. However, you send that child to school to learn how to read and write. If you didn't, that child would grow up being able to speak the language, but not write. Where I come from, we call that being stupid. So long story short, I think that all the skills should be built upon right from the beginning. However, if need be, reading and writing can take precedence over speaking and listening, at least for the initial year or two of learning.

This theory has it's points. (And great points, may I add) One thing however, this theory (IMO) would only work if the student was studying in Japan. It may work in the US or other parts of the world, but chances of picking up the "native" way of speaking Japanese is a lot slimmer than it would be if the student were studying in Japan.
Please don't take this the wrong way, I learned to read and write Japanese (Hiragana and Katakana) when I was 10 years old. And a little bit of Kanji too. It has served me well. But I'd rather have preferred to know how and when to use them, rather than just knowing how to read them. (This was in Hawaii, so I did not have the luxury of being able to learn the language by being around and listening to others speak).
The only thing is that we are not certain of is whether or not the original poster is studying in Japan or in his/her own country.


Yume, I must commend you. You know a crapload more Kanji than I have ever and (probably) will ever.
As far as Kanji goes for me, it's all self study.
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I'm not sure if you meant me, anochaude, but I was born in London and have spent all my life here. I've never been to Japan either. The course I'm doing now is provided by a University here in London, and they have a very proven track record for language study (especially Japanese). I'm not boasting or anything, I really don't want to come off as such either, so huge apologies if anyone gets that unfortunate end of the stick

I've never had any previous study of languages, but both my parents are from pakistan, so I've learnt how to speak/listen urdu (the national language of pakistan) while growing up. However, since starting Japanese 5 months ago, I've become so much aware of not only the english language, but languages in general. More like an appreciation for both foreign languages, and people who are fluent in foreign languages (this includes people studying them). One thing I've learnt is that there is no one universal way to learn foreign languages. What works for one person, may altogether hinder and frustrate another. I guess after people study for a short while, they start to develop their own method which suits them best. I definately have done that myself, and I'm also constantly revising that method based on all the new things I learn everyday.

Coming back to the "speaking/listening or reading/writing, which is first?" question, I forgot to mention something. The way I see it (and I'm going to start talking like a crazed RPG geek right now, because I think it fits this topic perfectly ), is that I would rather power up all my skills at the same while taking longer time than power up just the one and do it fast. There are people who like to concentrate on powering up their strength bar all the way, then slowly build up the rest. And there are people (like myself) who like to power up all their bars evenly in order to have a much more balanced experience all throughout the game. Now, both types of people using their two different methods of playing, will eventually beat the game (albeit with different experiences). However, when all is said and done, both have beaten it and it doesn't really affect anyone except you how you beat the game.

What I originally wanted to point out was, if you play the game by concentrating on powering up your strength bar only (or any other bar for that matter), then having such a huge gap within your skills will make things very difficult. Not impossible, just difficult (at least in my opinion). However, taking the time to power up all skill bars at the same time will help for a more balanced and (in my opinion) easier experience. Of course, throughout the course of the game, there will be slight differences in each of your skill bars. But when the gap widens so much, it's tempting to completely disregard your weakest skill bar and just concentrate on your strongest. In this situation, you will most likely reach the end of the game and then unfortunately encounter a point which requires that weakest bar to be at a certain level. Then you're screwed, because you eventually end up powering it up (even when you expected to be able to do without it). So to wrap up, in order to really play the game well and beat it you need to power up all your skill bars, even the ones you don't like or aren't particularly good at. You can either do them all at the same time, in order to be prepared for any situation, or do it when you hit a problem or when the situation requires it.

A long winded, boring, and perhaps pointless analogy. My apologies well in advance.

anoney wrote:

... However, since starting Japanese 5 months ago, I've become so much aware of not only the english language, but languages in general. More like an appreciation for both foreign languages, and people who are fluent in foreign languages (this includes people studying them). ... Coming back to the "speaking/listening or reading/writing, which is first?" question, I forgot to mention something. The way I see it (and I'm going to start talking like a crazed RPG geek right now, because I think it fits this topic perfectly ), is that I would rather power up all my skills at the same while taking longer time than power up just the one and do it fast ...

It's so great to hear other people with the same feelings or idea's! I've started studying Japanese about 5 months ago aswell, and the more I'm learning, the more I'm fascinated with the concept of "language". Like figuring about some expressions in my language (dutch), or noticing interesting resemblances between dutch and japanese. Sometimes I come to conclusions that some expressions or 'ways to say things' are very logical, when you think more about them.

Now about the statistic/strengthbar things: To rudely summarize your point, you say that having "even skills" in each language aspect is better for aesthetical reasons (and coming short on one of them at 'judgement day'). Until now I actually don't have an opinion on the matter yet, I'll make one here and I don't know where I'll end up:

I've noticed that when you learn the spoken language of Japanese, you gain alot of knowledge about how to say many things and expressing yourself in various different ways. Also this is probably the best way to learn different styles and dialects. When I plainly learn words with some examples from a book and grammatical explanation (which I consider "learning to write") I usually have a hard time using these new words in either written text or spoken words. This is probably because the meaning of words becomes most aperant (spelling?) from the way they're used in the spoken language. Usually only after hearing a word for the second time in conversation class I understand it well. Ofcourse having already learned things for writing makes it easier to acustom yourself to use them in speech. Other way around; It appears to be even easier (for me) to learn the kanji for words I know from conversation class (because I'm already familiar with them).

From these discoveries I should probably draw the conclusion that what you learn in one aspect of language, makes it easier for you to learn it in the other (writing vs speaking). I believe I've also heard once that a human learns things best when the "data" enters through many different senses. Like when you read something, then hear it, and say it afterwards you used 3 different things. This and my own conclusions seem to support "Do make equal skillbars".
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supermidget wrote:

From these discoveries I should probably draw the conclusion that what you learn in one aspect of language, makes it easier for you to learn it in the other (writing vs speaking). I believe I've also heard once that a human learns things best when the "data" enters through many different senses. Like when you read something, then hear it, and say it afterwards you used 3 different things. This and my own conclusions seem to support "Do make equal skillbars".

that's true based in my experience as well
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I'd say start with both. For two reasons.

a) learning Japanese reading/writing takes a long time so you better start early

b) Kanji especially are absolutely essential for the thorough understanding of the Japanese language, without reading/writing you will never have full access to the language, because of the many homophones etc.

I started with both and I'm thankful for it.

I say start with both too. At first, I thought that just speaking would be more important, but I find that reading and writing Japanese was equally important.

My prof has told us that she has experienced people who have gone to Japan and learned to speak first. But when they take the classes, they can sometimes have troubles because they've learned to speak a certain way, but don't know how to write properly.

Plus, I don't know about other people, but for me, I find it easier to learn words/phrases when I write it down and say it at the same time. It helps with my memorization.

Uh, you already brought up that subject in another forum....

learn to speak first is a good way to start.
then learn to read and write.

ahochaude wrote:

I just think it's better to learn to speak and comprehend a little before getting into the reading and writing stages. Although the ability to read and write is a definite plus, it doesn't help if you can't understand what you're trying to read or write. Just my take. On a related note, this is the first time I have met someone who feels that learning to read and write before speaking is more important. I find this interesting. Other users, if you have something to say, please drop by and opine. I'm looking forward to reading all opinons. (Especially the opposing ones)

well sorry if i think the same way as you do , i've tried to learn how to write , i've learned all the hiragana and katakana therefore i've forgot them all or mistake them for one another ( you know about which ones i'm talking about )
but now that i'm learning what the words mean , i register them really fast , and when i'll learn them again i hope that i won't forget them -- i don't have a goos memory anyway --
anyway .... i think that you should learn speaking before writting , that's all

In order to absorb what you have learned whether read & write or speech, you still will need someone to speak to... So if you are not in Japan or frequently speaking to someone of the language, its just moot. Since most of what is out there is literary. I think it is important to learn to read the literature and then focus on the verbal. I do agree when I came to the US when I was little. I knew japanese of what a 5 year old would have known. But by the time I was complete with first grade. I knew more english than japanese. And I unfortunately consider English my first language. And now in my late years I am getting fully into learning Japanese again. And it is truly overwhelming. My mom speaks in Japanese to me but at times I still only truly have grasped! Genki desu ka... And in my opinion that sucks. Since I have been in this off and on for the past 2 1/2 years on self study. Oh yeah when learning a foreign language don't try to learn a computer language at the same time C++/C#/Assembly. Not a good mix.

Rounin

Hello, i'm new to this website, and i'm just starting to learn Japanese (i started 4 days ago actually). I've read your different opinions and i found it very interesting because i did wonder about the same problem !

Eventualy i chose to learn with an audio cassette method (its mp3s actualy) and i think it works great but i'll see what it gives on the long term.
In the same time i started to learn hiraganas yesterday, even if i don't really need to read yet since i don't have that much vocabulary i think its worth learning it now, and it's more easy than i thought, i learn 10 by days and it's ok

When i'll be fed up with just that audio method i'll stard learning grammar more precisely.

Do you think i'm right in the way i learn Japanese?

(excuse my english )
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