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Uses of が (ga) and は (ha).... also に (ni) and へ (e)
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supermidget



Joined: 11 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

kiimura+akuya wrote:
sorry again... is it 連体形?


No problem Victory! Peace! You don't have to apologize so often Wink Just some tips to not make the forum clutter up, the EDIT button is also a handy thing.

Now back to language Smile

Rentaikei is written 連体形 in Japanese indeed. The reason I asked whether you ment 'rentaikei' is because not all dictionaries use the same form. Usually they use rentaikei but in Japan some use a different form, I'm not sure which though. So that's why "dictionary form" might confuse some people. Besides that, the word "dictionary form" makes it sound as if those forms are only found in dictionaries, which is far from true ofcourse. If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to make a post ^_^
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vega12



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

kokuou wrote:


You missed the comma after 私 (a 「、」 is usually inserted after the 'wa' when the subject comes first in a sentence), but other than that, the grammar is 100% PERFECT!

Great job, really Victory! Peace!

国王★


Awesome (^_^)b. My only real experience with Japanese is through reading text books, so it doesn't hurt to practice using the language once in a while.

Now I have a question about my grammar. I know that with Japanese, the word order isn't very rigorously determined by grammar, but instead can be moved around based on what you think is more important (at the end, right?). So how with this permutation be:

私は、両親とお兄さんの学校に車で10時に行くんだ。

Note that this is read more like the originally phrased English sentence. However, is the underlined part ambiguous in that it can either be taken to mean "to my parent's and brother's school" or "with my parents, to my brother's school"? I so, how are these ambiguities resolved if there's not enough in the sentence to move it to a less ambiguous place? Or is context usually supposed to determine which is actually meant? This ambiguity is actually why I decided to re-arrange the order in the first place, putting the words in a possible order of increasing importance.

EDIT: I like how the letters in PERFECT are spelt out using ROY.G.BIV Smile
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supermidget



Joined: 11 Dec 2003
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Location: 阿蘭陀
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

vega12 wrote:

私は、両親とお兄さんの学校に車で10時に行くんだ。

Note that this is read more like the originally phrased English sentence. However, is the underlined part ambiguous in that it can either be taken to mean "to my parent's and brother's school" or "with my parents, to my brother's school"? Smile


What you say is correct, using this word-order allows two interpretations. But it can be made clear by seperating お兄さん oniisan and 両親 ryoushin with a comma. Normally the two nouns around the particle と to are seen as a group, so with a comma you resolve this (or at least make it more clear):


私は両親と、お兄さんの学校に車で10時に行くんだ。
watashi ha ryoushin to, oniisan no gakkou ni kuruma de juuji ni iku n da


You could also think about formulating like this:
私と両親はお兄さんの学校に車で10時に行くんだ。
watashi to ryoushin ha oniisan no gakkou ni kuruma de juuji ni iku n da


The meaning is slightly different saying Me and my parents instead of I .... with my parents, but this way you've taken out any ambiguity.


Note on comma's:

Also note that you don't need to place a comma after 私は watashi ha. Usually comma's are used when the order of the sentence is unexpected, or when particles are omitted (ungrammatically). "Normally" you wouldn't need comma's per se:

あの人は誰だ? ano hito ha dare da?
あの人、誰だ? ano hito, dare da?
誰だ、あの人? dare da, ano hito?
誰、あの人? dare, ano hito?
~ who's that person?

One of my teachers used to say - regarding comma's in litterature - "In Japanese, comma's are only used to confuse the reader" Smile It means they sometimes use many comma's when they're not needed. In English, we use comma's to seperate nested sentences, Japanese doesn't use comma's for that, so reading them the way you're used to may confuse you. Anyway this is offtopic Bleah
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supermidget



Joined: 11 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I decided to put this in another post, since it's not related to the other topic. So, now we could spend some time thinking about sentence orders...



Sentence order:

In general, I think the time/place markers usually go in front, time preceding place:

あした、どこ(に)行く?
tomorrow, where are you going?



Any optional subjects go in front, but in daily speech sometimes you ~forget~ to mention the subject, and you can add it to the end (see the 4 above sentences who's that person). Maybe the most important rule is that verbs "always" close the sentence. Any agents, objects and stuff relating to the verb are before it:

テレビを見る terebi wo miru
to watch television

* 見る、テレビを miru, terebi wo (INcorrect)
watching, television?? - actually, I'm not sure whether this is 'allowed' in daily conversation though. Somebody comment please? ^_^



Adverbs can come at many places, the rules are not so strict:

テレビを一日見ていた。terebi wo ichinichi miteita.
一日テレビを見ていた。ichinichi terebi wo miteita.
I've been watching television all day



Counters after the noun and it's particle:

犬を二匹飼いたい。 inu wo nihiki kaitai
I want to keep two dogs



I'm not sure if there's much to tell about sentence order in Japanese... If you run into any problems or questions, please post them so we can use them as a guideline for answering the question. ^_^
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Last edited by supermidget on Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kokuou



Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

vega12 wrote:

私は、両親とお兄さんの学校に車で10時に行くんだ。

Note that this is read more like the originally phrased English sentence. However, is the underlined part ambiguous in that it can either be taken to mean "to my parent's and brother's school" or "with my parents, to my brother's school"? I so, how are these ambiguities resolved if there's not enough in the sentence to move it to a less ambiguous place?


The simple answer is that you are perfectly correct and that the above sentence can mean both of those.
However, because the situation would be so rare (what I mean is that, your parents would have to be entering university very late in their lives or they would have to be teachers at your brother's school) that the most probable of the two is that you are going "to your brother's school with your parents, unless prior context indicates otherwise.

Of course, the way to get around that is to restate the sentence:

私は、お兄さんの学校に両親と車で10時に行くんだ。

However, both of these sentences are, for the most part, unambiguous in Japanese (for the reason stated above), and either are acceptable.

As for sentence order itself, it doesn't make that much of a difference in Japanese, in terms of stress. In languages such as Russian, for example, you are correct in saying that the final element of the sentence is the "important" or "new" information. This happens in Japanese to a certain extent as well, but it is very subtle, and you won't get funny looks should you put something in a different order.

What makes this rearranging possible is the existence of "case marking" in Japanese. These are usually referred to as "grammatical markers" or "particles" in textbooks, but we linguists call them "case markers." It is these markers, rather than sentence order, that gives sentences free word order (except for the verb) in Japanese.
I won't go into depth, but other languages that employ case marking include Russian, German, and many others.

To answer supermidget's question about whether the following is okay or not:

??見る、テレビを。

Albeit strange, it is found in daily language, although not in a non-question phrase that you would hear someone saying.

Two situations that I can think of seeing this would be 1) in advertisements; and 2) when someone is asking a question.
I have heard and have used myself the question form, 「見る?テレビを。」 or 「飲む?水を。」. Although intonation plays a big part in the way it is said, it is possible to have these constructions. I suppose they may be considered separate sentences then, but that's another post Beaten

A little word about ambiguity - it exists in all languages, but context is what decides what is meant in the end by the speaker.
A famous example is the "un- -able" phenomenon in English.

Take the noun phrase:

an unlockable box

Does this mean a box that can be unlocked or one that cannot be locked?

(You know when you find stuff like that fun that you are a geek Beaten )

HTH,

国王★
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Last edited by kokuou on Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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vega12



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the clarification in that matter everyone; I guess my hunch was correct regarding the possible ambiguity in that.

kokuou wrote:
A little word about ambiguity - it exists in all languages, but context is what decides what is meant in the end by the speaker.
A famous example is the "un- -able" phenomenon in English.

Take the noun phrase:

an unlockable box

Does this mean a box that can be unlocked or one that cannot?


I must say, that is the first time I've even considered that it is ambiguous because whenever I've heard something like that, I suppose it has always been obvious which meaning is correct Smile. Pretty neat example! I wonder if it even possible to construct a language in which there are no possible ambiguities... I doubt it.
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kiimura+akuya



Joined: 12 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

erms.. i seem to have a problem here and don't seem to get it correct, right into my head... well... teacher taught me this sometime ago but i cant seem to understand... well... is it true that に行く could be used for (event lik a concert)に行く?
and... is it true that へ行く could be used for
(place lik garden)へ行く?

maybe i juz gt them all mixed up or AHHHHHH.... i going mad!! Bang Head

if you don't understand what i'm talking about... never mind... i am so sorry... Sad
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supermidget



Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 406
Location: 阿蘭陀
Country: Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

kokuou wrote:

To answer supermidget's question about whether the following is okay or not:

??見る、テレビを。

Albeit strange, it is found in daily language, although not in a non-question phrase that you would hear someone saying.

Two situations that I can think of seeing this would be 1) in advertisements; and 2) when someone is asking a question.
I have heard and have used myself the question form, 「見る?テレビを。」 or 「飲む?水を。」. Although intonation plays a big part in the way it is said, it is possible to have these constructions. I suppose they may be considered separate sentences then, but that's another post Beaten

A little word about ambiguity - it exists in all languages, but context is what decides what is meant in the end by the speaker.
A famous example is the "un- -able" phenomenon in English.

Take the noun phrase:

an unlockable box

Does this mean a box that can be unlocked or one that cannot be locked?

(You know when you find stuff like that fun that you are a geek Beaten )

HTH,

国王★


thanks for explaining ^_^ actually i find the example of the unlockable box very funny hehehe, usually i'm hunting for strange phenomenons in my own language as well, so if you have more of such jokes please tell them lOl rofl
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supermidget



Joined: 11 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

ArtemisX wrote:


I believe the particle comes after the object and before the counter. In class it was drilled into my head to never to put any particles behind a counter.

The correct usage then would be

二匹飼いたい。
inu wo nihiki kaitai
I want to keep two dogs.

葉書き二枚, 切手三枚ください。
hagaki wo nimai, kitte wo sanmai kudasai
I would like 2 postcards and 3 stamps please.

Although colloquially, the particle 'wo' is left out most of the time.


Ah I had a feeling i was incorrect on that point, so I asked a student friend but he wasn't sure either but confirmed my guess of *after* the particle... i suppose it was wrong... aargh should remember it! Bang Head
ill edit my post when im not in the univ. any more, thhese stupid pc's dont have Japanese -_-

[edit]Okay I *finally* editted my post sorry Sad[/edit]
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daikenkai08



Joined: 26 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I've been reading through this, and I've learned from what I mistook. arigatou

btw, What is the 3kyuu test?
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tabana



Joined: 07 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

It's a Japanese Language Proficiency Test used to evaluate and certify the language proficiency of non-native speakers of Japanese.

More info here: http://www.jflalc.org
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gaijinmark



Joined: 13 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Since this thread deals with "ni" I'll put this here. Japan Times had an article today about "sore ni" and "sore de":http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2016/07/04/language/adding-little-bit-conjunctions-sore-ni-sore-de/#.V36oP8tTHZ5
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