I've missed the news for almost a week but i do know when this incident happened. My take on this is that 2 wrongs don't make something right. Neither does changing the History text going to change what has happened. Whatever's happened has happened and like what someone said in this thread, we learn from mistakes. I can imagine the hurt that the Chinese feels. It is like saying that the pain, the hardship, the loss of someone closed to them due to the war never did happen. When someone has gone through a war like that, it is not easy to forget, not for as long as one lives.

But how the Chinese reacted to this matter was not appropriate as well. Destroying all things Japanese does not make things better. It will only aggrevate the relationship between the 2 countries. I've had Chinese(China Chinese) students telling me that they received messages telling them to boycott Japanese products. Economically, too, it is not a wise move by the Japanese to whitewash history.

My grandparents lived through WW2 and it's definitely not something pleasant to go through. They did feel something against the Japanese then, but they know too that without the Japanese NOW, the economy and much more than that won't be the same.

The Man wrote:

What of a future Prime Minister that decides NOT to lay wreaths during his or her term? That leaves the door open for "see, I told you, so, arguments." This is why I'm advocating for a perennialist, for the ages apology (and when I say "for the age," I guess you can interchange that phrase with "honest"). What's of a future Prime Minister who decides to totally ignore duties to fly over to the Chinas, the South Koreas to say "sorry." If there's a Prime Minister that refuses to apologize in the future for Japan's Imperial-ness? Who'd be comfortable with someone like this? But if there's a Japan-sponsored apology that trumps him or her anyway? Especially at a time if Japan DOES (somehow) become a permanent member of the UN Security Council? That'll say something (and, on an unrelated note, act as a primer to impeach such a politician ). .

So let me see if I have this right. Every future Prime Minister of Japan must apologize for the war atrocities of 60 years ago and go visit China and Korea and wherever else....per you....right? So in the year 2099....Japan Prime Ministers will still need to apologizing....is this correct?

I didn't realize each new US President is still apologizing in some formal manner for the african slaves or apologizing to the Japanese americans or to the Native Indians or to the Vietnamese or how about those Iraqi prisoners.

I didn't realize each new Chinese government officials are apologizing for the atrocities committed during the Communism rise.

http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/history_communism.php

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/china.50/red.giant/prisons/wu.essay/

But it's obvious you hold Japan to a level of perfect expectation while the others just slide by.

The Man wrote:

Yes easy for East Asian nations is what I'm saying. And it's THESE nations that Japan has to deal with, yes? Doesn't seem to matter what those folks outside of East Asia think. The region has their matters to deal with (I think someone even mentioned the possibility of an Asian Union in the future? Was it Toranaga who said that? If THAT happens, is it gonna be any LESS easy for WWII protests against Japan to rise up? Or more? Never mind, maybe the creation of an AU will demand a steadfast apology from Japan at the onset. I'm no expert)..

Care to elaborate by what you mean how its THESE nations that Japan has to deal with? I think Japan is dealing with alot of nations. All I know is "economic" wise....the majority of east asian countries need Japan more than Japan needs them. But I don't want to head towards that road. Why? It will only cause each country to suffer more.

All I know is that 2/3 voted and "elected" Japan to the UN Security Council. So my point to you is that to others... Japan has indeed apologized and given aid many times over to those countries and other countries too. Even people here recognize how Japan has helped their countries economy.

I repeat...some people can focus in on the good Japan has done since it is more recent. But others harbor this hatred of what the Japanese did in the past....and I should say the Japanese "military".
I understand the "resentment" but it should be reserved to those who committed those crimes in the past.

It makes no sense to hate on some Japanese now who had nothing to do with the war. And IMO it is wrong to continue to bring up these past war time atrocities now for bargaining power.

Japan has given China $27 billion US dollars in aid since 1980. And it's difficult to imagine how much Japan helped China generate its own revenues through technology and building of factories/steel plants. Same goes for South Korean's car and technology industry. The problem is that those governments have never truly passed on this money to those victims.

Japan has given food aid too to even North Korea since the 1990's. Some how all these things don't matter to some.

And you can believe what you want about the permanent status of Japan in the UN Security Council but to me and others I think Japan just took a big step forward in achieving permanent status.

It's amazing and hypocritical how China can even remain on as a permanent member since their atrocities against its own people are more recent. Don't forget about the Chinese nuclear sub in Japan waters found in November 2004 which China originally denied and originally refused to apologize too.

So I repeat...it's ironic how you are holding Japan to some perfectionism over some apology while no country is clean themselves but yet they have permanent status.

IMO...what sparked this off is the fact that Japan's trying to 'change history'. We won't be having this discussion if Japan didn't try to do this. It's true that almost all the countries have their faults, but to deny something that has happened, it's just not right.

BUT, i have to say that i still do not agree with how China is reacting to this.

I am posting this article verbatim from the Yahoo News page just in case the link changes.
Original News Link

Yahoo News wrote:

Japan PM Apologizes for WWII Aggression By AUDRA ANG, Associated Press Writer JAKARTA, Indonesia - Japan's prime minister apologized Friday for his country's World War II aggression in Asia in a bid to defuse tensions with regional rival China, but a Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman said the apology needed to be backed up with action after Japanese lawmakers made a controversial visit to a war shrine. Just hours before Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi apologized, a Cabinet minister and more than 80 Japanese lawmakers visited a Tokyo shrine to Japan's war dead. China's Foreign Ministry expressed "strong dissatisfaction over the negative actions of some Japanese politicians" in visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, which also honor's Japan's executed war criminals. "That President Koizumi expressed this attitude in this arena is welcome. We welcome it," ministry spokesman Kong Quan told reporters at a summit of Asian and African leaders. "But to express it is one aspect. What's of much more importance is the action. You have to make it a reality." He said "60 years of history has caused great harm to China and Asia." Koizumi's expression of "deep remorse" at a summit of Asian and African leaders in Jakarta did not go beyond what Japanese leaders previously have said. But its delivery at the international gathering clearly was aimed at easing an escalating row with China over Tokyo's handling of its wartime atrocities and its bid for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council. Relations between the two Asian powers have plunged in recent weeks to a three-decade low. "In the past Japan through its colonial rule and aggression caused tremendous damage and suffering for the people of many countries, particularly those of Asian nations," Koizumi said at the summit's opening ceremony. "Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility." Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Kong Quan said China welcomed Koizumi's apology — but said more need to be done. "That President Koizumi expressed this attitude in this arena is welcome. We welcome it," Kong told reporters at a summit of Asian and African leaders in Jakarta. "But to express it is one aspect. What's of much more importance is the action. You have to make it a reality." China's ambassador to South Korea, Li Bin, said: "Of course, words are important. But I believe actions are more important." Lu Yunfei, a spokesman for Chinese groups that helped to mobilize three weekends of violent anti-Japanese protests in China, said Koizumi's comments did not go far enough. "It's a sign of some progress, since this is the first time a Japanese leader has offered this kind of statement in an international forum," Lu said. "Still, this is far, far from enough." Lu criticized Koizumi for failing to mention China by name and for what he called ambiguous language in the apology. "China was the biggest victim of Japan's invasion. The suffering was immense," he said. About 80 Parliament members made the pilgrimage to the shrine, which honors Japan's 2.5 million dead from World War II. The group visited in observance of an annual spring festival. Internal Affairs and Communications Minister Taro Aso, a Cabinet minister, visited the shrine alone later. In response, China's Foreign Ministry called on Japan to take actions that are "more conducive to improving and developing Sino-Japanese relations," citing the "current severe situation." Koizumi said he was hoping for a one-on-one meeting with Chinese President Hu Jintao in Jakarta on Saturday, Japan's Kyodo news agency reported. But China says it's still considering the proposal. Massive anti-Japanese protests erupted in major Chinese cities this month after Tokyo approved a new history textbook that critics say whitewashes Japan's wartime atrocities, including mass sex slavery and germ warfare. The protesters also have targeted Tokyo's Security Council bid. Tensions also are fueled by disputes over gas-drilling in disputed waters and Koizumi's repeated visits to the Yasukuni Shrine. A Japanese Foreign Ministry spokesman said in an interview in Jakarta that Koizumi's speech clearly shows Japan's regret, a core point he was hoping to convey to the delegates. "We are not just rich people hanging around giving out money. We are doing this because our whole attitude is based on remorse," Akira Chiba said. Tokyo is one of the world's largest donor's of foreign aid. "I do hope that the Chinese will hear this message, too." He said Japan still expects "a formal apology for what happened ... because it's against international law what they did." The demonstrators have smashed windows of Japan's diplomatic missions and damaged Japanese restaurants. The Chinese government insists that Japan is to blame for the troubles. "It's not bad for us (if China does not apologize). It's bad for them. It's in the interest of both sides, not just our side," Chiba said. Also on Friday, Singapore accused Japan of straining relations with its neighbors by rendering a "strange interpretation" of World War II in history textbooks. Tokyo has approved a textbook that critics say plays down Japan's wartime atrocities, including mass sex slavery and germ warfare. The issue "has strained relations between Japan and its neighbors, in particular China and Korea. This is not in the interest of the entire region," Singapore's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said in a statement. Japan's Kyodo News Agency said Koizumi's remarks were based on a 1995 speech made by Tomiichi Murayama, the prime minister at the time, marking the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II.

The Man wrote:

Sigh. I think I've stated and implied such before -- getting 100% satisfaction is not the goal [they WILL never get that, I'll admit; but, that's not the point]. This is not a customer service issue. The POINT, in all actuality, is just finally, finally for Japan to craft an honest apology. That should be the goal for Japan. One that'll disarm any detractors who see such an apology; one that'd disagreers, normal and radicals, get embarrassed to criticize such an apology. An apology that can be perennially pointed to does not exist.

Prime Minister Koizumi issued an apology today. �gWith feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology always engraved in mind, Japan has resolutely maintained, consistently since the end of World War II, never turning into a military power but an economic power, its principle of resolving all matters by peaceful means, without recourse through the use of force."

However, this apology was a REITERATION of an apology issued back in 1995.

MSNBC wrote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7594240/ Japan�fs Kyodo News Agency said Koizumi�fs remarks were based on a 1995 speech made by Tomiichi Murayama, the prime minister at the time, marking the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II. Going beyond statements of remorse made by previous Japanese leaders, Murayama spoke of Japan�fs �gmistaken national policy�h that �gcaused tremendous damage and suffering to people of many countries�h and offered a �gheartfelt apology.�h

How MANY apologies are needed?

gregsan wrote:

How MANY apologies are needed?

Apparently an infinite number.

Plus one.

bmwracer wrote:

Apparently an infinite number. Plus one.

It sure seems that way.

gregsan wrote:

It sure seems that way.

Yup.

OT: Greg, have you gone over and checked out the katana display in Pasadena? Looks fascinating.

gregsan wrote:

How MANY apologies are needed?

I think what The Man means about the apologies is that Japan government should give a written statement about their apologies. This way, whenever people say that Japan hasn't said "sorry", the Japanese can always point to that document. I think that's what The Man is just trying to say.

BmwM3Rod wrote:

So in the year 2099....Japan Prime Ministers will still need to apologizing....is this correct?

bmwracer wrote:

Apparently an infinite number. Plus one.

No.

I'm advocating one comprehensive apology so that infinite numbers of apologies don't have to be made by Prime Ministers.

Again, I keep saying (and I'm keeping in mind the plausibility factor) what's gonna happen if a future PM, in his or her right mind or not, doesn't have it in his or her agenda to offer apologies for Japan's acts during WWII. Indeed, even says, "you know what? Why are any more apologies needed? Prime Ministers before me have apologized, isn't that enough?" What if this happens? Can it be seen as a threat? Worse, what of the PM who says, "oh, yeah? MAKE me, make THIS PM apologize."

I know it MIGHT be unrealistic to think so, but, these canned apologies we get to see every year from the PMs . . . it's getting to lose whatever potentency it was intended to have (real or imagined) in the first place.

Yeah, heh, I'm first in line to be glad that Yahoo article above's been cited. A look at that exactly WHAT an apology from the Japanese PM entails -- China, etc. has suffered "great harm." Oh, yeah, PM? Like what, PM? Elaborate so that we know that YOU know, PM. And, lo and behold, there are those words like "regret" and "remorse." Where's the "r" word that they should be using, admitting to one of the acts that members of their Imperial army committed?

You see up in that article where that one guy, Lu Yunfei (spokesman for Chinese groups) is citing the apology as "ambiguous language." IT IS "ambiguous language." And it's more on the onus of the Japanese making it so easy for such representatives to criticize the PM as much.

The apology stated by the Japanese government should admit what they did. Details. Admit it. One that'll disarm the vitriolics for starters. Show 'em you're serious, not merely regretful.

One apology ma de.

Smiley_18 wrote:

I think what The Man means about the apologies is that Japan government should give a written statement about their apologies. This way, whenever people say that Japan hasn't said "sorry", the Japanese can always point to that document. I think that's what The Man is just trying to say.

Yes. Thanks, Smiley_18. That's exactly what I'm saying. I mean, whether I end up ultimately being right (which is certainly looking like it ) or wrong (which I'll admit if Japan does become a permanent member of the security council and does not make an apology for the ages, not merely stated as "regrets" by Prime Ministers; I mean, really, when the apology coming from the PM has to be constructed so that the news can use his/her quotes for soundbites, et al? S/he CAN'T POSSIBLY go into the kind of detail regarding the type of apology that Japan SHOULD be doing).

Smiley_18 has crystallized what I have been saying all this time (in a perfect world, you'd be my editor, Smiley_18. Stephen King said it best -- to write is human, to edit is divine).

I do certainly appreciate understanding that my posts are clear.

One theme I'm seeing in this post is a complaint that Japan is changing their histroy by changing their textbooks. Go to any country involved in the American Revolution and read their viewpoint, and you will find large differences countering statements in other textbooks. There really is no way to write a non-biased historical text to teach your children about an event that had such a massive impact on your country. If you want an example, I'll give you one of viewpoints. Look up Nat Turner. He was a slave who tried to lead a revolution for freedom. He gathered slaves, and started a revolution which ended with the deaths of many whites, and more blacks. Was he a war hero or a murderer? If you say war hero, point out all the deaths of civilians. If you say murder, compare him to Washington or Lincoln. Washington being the better example because he was not a political leader of a declared nation, but both lead revolts that had many civilian casualties. Perspective will slant your history.

As far as apologies. Japan has apologized for many of their atrocities by name, but a single apology to the world covering all war crimes is really the only way Japan can ever cover all the bases. As far as Koreans not liking Japanese. I know Koreans, I know Japanese. There is an animosity between the two countries.

I have a bias myself, but I've discerned through my conversations with various Japanese that they are taught that Hirohito was crazy, the war was bad, and they should be embarrassed by their countries actions during WWII. Embarrassment in Japanese culture, as you all should know, is akin to social jail.

my 2 cents

One comprehensive written apology per The Man......

hmmm....then the response will be ...."we don't like the way it was written and it's not a real apology" "besides...it's too little too late" "word's don't mean anything...action speaks louder than words"



Hmmm....I wonder what does that one Chinese official mean by that. He makes it sound like Japan has given no aid to China at all.

BmwM3Rod wrote:

One comprehensive written apology per The Man...... hmmm....then the response will be ...."we don't like the way it was written and it's not a real apology" "besides...it's too little too late" "word's don't mean anything...action speaks louder than words"

If it's written honestly, citing acts and which of the East Asian neighboring countries were invaded and affected, then the countries complaining now would lose their capital (this is what I mean when I say "disarm") in their complaints of Japanese Imperialism and their acts in WWII. Is it so difficult for Japan's government (diet, etc.) to draft something like this? If so, then why is it so, for a country that so cherishes the idea of "the apology" (maybe this is the bigger issue).

Doesn't Japan want to say, "here's the apology. It's honest and complete, we list all of our atrocities, we list all countries we invaded in WWII, and we apologize. We've stopped pussyfooting, I think it's what you'd call it, China, other East Asian neighbors. OK? Next topic, please."

Right now, there IS not even a write-up. Just words that blow off into the wind.

I can tell you this -- if there WAS some kind of write-up like the one I'm advocating (one, by the way, that's not edited every minute by the Japanese government, politicians), I wouldn't BE so adamant about Japan's need to craft a steadfast apology apology for WWII, not just one that comes from ONE elected official (and, if Japan is a democratic country, isn't the PM just ONE elected official?) I would be saying, "I dunno, the Chinese can't possibly be wished to be viewed on as credible in their WWII protests. The Japanese have given an honest-to-goodness apology." Period.

There's no hard document from Japan. There's not. There's not. There's not.

That having been said, it is wrong and illegal for these protestors to hurt Japanese citizens and establishments, and I hope such protestors are caught, I'll state.

And regarding the if our country gives you aid, you better darn well appreciate it and forget the past and stuff we did your country (I'm not quoting anyone here, just trying to paraphrase) philosophy. Way I see it is this is not a "logic" that works among individual human beings and it sure as heck doesn't work between countries -- as a U.S. citizen, I just gotta look at the daily news to see countries ragging on the U.S.; countries that we helped.

Doing my Joliet Jake impression:

No I didn't. Honest... I ran out of gas. I, I had a flat tire. I didn't have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn't come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake. A terrible flood. Locusts. IT WASN'T MY FAULT, I SWEAR TO GOD.



On a mission from God,
PCM

Hhaha. Next time throw some SCTV into the mix, pcmodem.

The Man wrote:

Hhaha. Next time throw some SCTV into the mix, pcmodem.

Take off, eh!



Where's my brewski,
PCM

The Man wrote:

If it's written honestly, citing acts and which of the East Asian neighboring countries were invaded and affected, then the countries complaining now would lose their capital (this is what I mean when I say "disarm") in their complaints of Japanese Imperialism and their acts in WWII. Is it so difficult for Japan's government (diet, etc.) to draft something like this? If so, then why is it so, for a country that so cherishes the idea of "the apology" (maybe this is the bigger issue). Doesn't Japan want to say, "here's the apology. It's honest and complete, we list all of our atrocities, we list all countries we invaded in WWII, and we apologize. We've stopped pussyfooting, I think it's what you'd call it, China, other East Asian neighbors. OK? Next topic, please." Right now, there IS not even a write-up. Just words that blow off into the wind. I can tell you this -- if there WAS some kind of write-up like the one I'm advocating (one, by the way, that's not edited every minute by the Japanese government, politicians), I wouldn't BE so adamant about Japan's need to craft a steadfast apology apology for WWII, not just one that comes from ONE elected official (and, if Japan is a democratic country, isn't the PM just ONE elected official?) I would be saying, "I dunno, the Chinese can't possibly be wished to be viewed on as credible in their WWII protests. The Japanese have given an honest-to-goodness apology." Period. There's no hard document from Japan. There's not. There's not. There's not. That having been said, it is wrong and illegal for these protestors to hurt Japanese citizens and establishments, and I hope such protestors are caught, I'll state. And regarding the if our country gives you aid, you better darn well appreciate it and forget the past and stuff we did your country (I'm not quoting anyone here, just trying to paraphrase) philosophy. Way I see it is this is not a "logic" that works among individual human beings and it sure as heck doesn't work between countries -- as a U.S. citizen, I just gotta look at the daily news to see countries ragging on the U.S.; countries that we helped.

Here is an article way back from 1998 which shows Japan gave South Korea a "written" apology but wow that sure made a big difference didn't it

Koizumi had to visit South Korea again and apologize himself too.

So I repeat The Man....your request is a noble one but as I stated before...it is NOT going to change certain invidual's minds on how they feel.

The written apology is there for South Korea apparently and President Kim Dae-jung "accepted" the apology but many Koreans still do not feel it was done at all nor good enough.

It talks of difference as to why it was given for Korea but not China although it is in "writing" in regards to remorse. But then again....it's all about nitpicking IMO. No matter how it is said or how written somebody is always going to have a beef with it and it will continue to come up as a "political" tool.

Here is another good article from 1998:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/july-dec98/china_12-1.html

This is a very sensitive issue and I tried to stay away but my mouth wouldn't let me.

After reading thus far, I think (and hope) that I have a valid opinion worth posting. So don't flame me on what I have to say, please?!


As The Man has posted, a detailed documented apology is a great source of referance for future use. IMO, it should be done. No questions asked.
In the world of business and politics, documentation is essential. (Words are and mean almost nothing. They can be altered and even erased from existance very easily) Documentation can last a lifetime and can also be referred to as a source of evidence of a certain event that has occured (ie: proof of a formal apology). --All the reason why Japan should create one.

On the other hand......

As BmwM3Rod has posted, documention of an apology is good. However, it is subject to only the eye of the beholder. People will want to believe and live with or without hatred regardless if a legitamite documented source of apologies exist or not. A documented apology does not matter in the long run. (Hence, S. Korea) Japan has apologized before, and why should they do it again, especially in writing? Another reason is that since the probability of the documentation "solving the problem" won't be even worth the effort. So why do it?!

So the question remains, how do we satisfy these type of people?

-We can't.

IMO (Japan should) just create a documented apology to all of Asia. If the Chinese government wants to find a way to call that apology "trash" and still find ways to harass Japan, let them. That won't stop them anyway.
However, a documented apology serves as proof that Japan has attempted to "bury the hatchet" and apologize for their WW2 inhumane acts.
As long as their (Japan) actions show that they are sincere with their apology (in which they are already, IMO), there is no reason why China (more or less any other country of Asia) should try to keep the "heat" with Japan.

*brainfart*: Oh yeah, and Koizumi's visit to the shrine was done in respect to those who died for their country only. The Chinese and other Asian nations are using that as a "cop out" excuse to find faults in Japan's previous worded apology IMO. None of their business. IMO, that incident is so easy to twist into a wrongdoing.

In conclusion, as long as Japan maintains their sincerity along with the (hopefully produced) documented apology, any nation who tries to find a way to "attack" Japan will be looked at "in the wrong". That documented apology will (somewhat) "protect" Japan.

*brainfart*: Japan did it with S. Korea. Good. Japan has yet to do it with China. No good. No wonder most of the (published) heat is coming from China rather than from S. Korea. (Now I didn't say "all") S. Korea got one, China didn't. Time for Japan to do their due diligence. Who knows? If Japan does it with China, maybe things wouldn't be so bad as it is now with China. If Japan does and things are still the same, hey can't be helped. But at least it's documented. And China will look like an arse if they persue such "harassment" after the fact.




Gonna click the "submit" button now. Hope I don't get flamed...
_________________

ahochaude wrote:

This is a very sensitive issue and I tried to stay away but my mouth wouldn't let me. After reading thus far, I think (and hope) that I have a valid opinion worth posting. So don't flame me on what I have to say, please?! As The Man has posted, a detailed documented apology is a great source of referance for future use. IMO, it should be done. Gonna click the "submit" button now. Hope I don't get flamed...

What, my Joliet Jake Blues apology wasn't good enough?



On a mission from God,
PCM

err... i've stayed in china for quite a while, and ya... i'd like to say i also think that, chinese sometimes overdo already...

past is past, japanese government try to alter the history, well.. as a human they should not do it, however, it's their own country's biz... and those who's right to question this act, are only those victims... what more to say, most victims are already not around and most criminal are also already not around

most countries, even as big as US, do not keep their history books or B&W record as 100% truthful either, and why should they be blamed...

i'm not sure why the japanese FINALLY decided to change the history, but, they must have a reason to do so... maybe to take one step forward, sometimes, err.. how to say... abusive parents will create abusive children... so, i thought, while is good to remember bad history, but it takes courage for a person to accept and realise own bad history, when passed to descendants, maybe they think that, it's better not to let them know, so that the younger generation can grow up better and more normal...

otherwise, just like mainland china, they'll never get themselves out of the past trauma, and whatever they do, they'll take the emotional count...

i'm not really sure how to put these in words, but, i just think that, we, the younger generation of chinese, especially those 3rd/4th generation of chinese who's gone oversea... have no stand to judge on this matter... and especially support chinese blindly...

yes we all concentrate on WWII, however, in fact, the tense japanese-chinese relationship doesn't start from there, it started from long before...

by making a person victim, doens't mean, that gives the person full-right in the future, to sabo my family and to mind my family's business... yes, I AM the one who's made a person's victim, then, ya, I should be responsible for it... if the victim starts to do funny things... he's already not a victim anymore... he instead has turned into another sinner himself... well.... that's what i think... sorry, i don't intend to offend any nation, as i'm a chinese oversea, i don't want to say to the fullest too...

however, koizumi's already apologise over the summit, as a procedure, what else do they ask for... or, to admit to the world, they just want $$$ since most of them are really very $$ minded, and they're only driven by $$$ nowadays...

same here... they think that, they're big nation, their economy growing (by depending on US, on japanese companies there) they start to do funny things on taiwan, on HK and etc... so, what does it mean???

again, i somehow believe, if you do not let go the past, you'll only becoming a monster yourselves... cos, you hold grudges...

hibiki

and mm... frankly, knowing how the chinese is, even with a written documentation, i don't think that will stop their flame, they'll ask more and more and they'll find more excuse to make japanese 'pay' for it... this will never come to an end...

and imagine, if, chinese now, have a hand on japanese (like how the japanese as to chinese in WWII), see what they do to the japaanese goods and japanese people their own country, i don't think they'll be an angel either...

and again, i still think, that, altering the text book is japanese own business... while they alter the textbook, still the whole world know that, the history cannot be changed... so, i still think that, this shouldn't be made a big fuss out of it, those who's making a big fuss out of it, again, is trying to benefit from it

at the same time... while blaming the japanese government still worshipping the wartime soldier, why, the they themselves, also, still worshipping (in a brain-washed manner) their no.1 idol, in every house??? who's caused many family splitted, and agony to individual during that time, why the massacre to their own poeple are not questioned??? are they all well-documented???

my point of view is, if i kill my own children, i commit adultery, i take bribes, i kill my subordinate, i do whatever crime to what i THINK belong to me (while in the world, there's nobody really belonged to anybody) and i hide it under the blanket, and go out of my door, and claim justice to whoever great grandfather generation of poeple who's done something bad to my ancester in his generation, to pay something, or do something for me, or, even ask his descendant to keep satisfying me... come on!!! this will never end...

and a B&W document, will only shut us up, but, again, it won't leave them in peace, i gather, what they want is either big $$ or, a chance to do back the same thing as what they've received... argggh!!