woow... thanks supermidget and kokuou for the long and complete explanations! i think i have to save it to my computer

another question if you don't mind.. is the difference of nai and naku just lies in the more polite-less polite form? i heard that -ku is just the polite form of -i, so just wanna make sure.. thank u!

kurokage wrote:

woow... thanks supermidget and kokuou for the long and complete explanations! i think i have to save it to my computer another question if you don't mind.. is the difference of nai and naku just lies in the more polite-less polite form? i heard that -ku is just the polite form of -i, so just wanna make sure.. thank u!

Not quite.

The difference between words that end in '-ku-' and '-i' is purely grammatical.
I can't explain all the differences here, but here are some examples on how they are used:

���{�B (Furu-i hon) "An old book."
�Â��Ȃ����{�B (Furu-ku natta hon) "A book that has become old."

���̖т��Ȃ��B(Kami no ke ga nai) "(He) has no hair."
���̖т��Ȃ��Ȃ����B (Kami no ke ga nakunatta) "(He) has lost his hair." [Lit. "(As for him,) his hair has become non-existant."]

HTH,
������
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams

kurokage wrote:

woow... thanks supermidget and kokuou for the long and complete explanations! i think i have to save it to my computer another question if you don't mind.. is the difference of nai and naku just lies in the more polite-less polite form? i heard that -ku is just the polite form of -i, so just wanna make sure.. thank u!

in addition to kokuou's reply (thanks kokuou ^^): the -ku form is most used as adverbs like in kokuou's examples. It's also used to make negatives (with nai/arimasen):

�� (furui) = to be old
�Â��Ȃ� (furuku nai) = it's not old
�Â�����܂���@(furuku arimasen) = it's not old (general polite form)

Maybe the last example is where you derived your understanding of "-ku" being polite from?
_________________

�@
�Y�����s������

supermidget wrote:

in addition to kokuou's reply (thanks kokuou ^^): the -ku form is most used as adverbs like in kokuou's examples. It's also used to make negatives (with nai/arimasen): �Â� (furui) = to be old �Â��Ȃ� (furuku nai) = it's not old �Â�����܂���@(furuku arimasen) = it's not old (general polite form) Maybe the last example is where you derived your understanding of "-ku" being polite from?

i sometimes find sentences like this in japanese songs lyric :

nasusube mo naku
...demo naku

i guessed the sentences actually came from "nasusube mo nai" and "...demo nai". the thing that changed is not "i" from words like furui, samui, etc to form negatives but it's from "nai" itself (i guess) i don't understand in what condition i have to use it

anyway (to kokuou too..) thanks for your explanation, i really appreciate it!

kurokage wrote:

i sometimes find sentences like this in japanese songs lyric : nasusube mo naku ...demo naku i guessed the sentences actually came from "nasusube mo nai" and "...demo nai". the thing that changed is not "i" from words like furui, samui, etc to form negatives but it's from "nai" itself (i guess) i don't understand in what condition i have to use it anyway (to kokuou too..) thanks for your explanation, i really appreciate it!

yea i've heard such things a few times as well i think, but as far as I know it's grammatically incorrect. Songs sometimes use strange words or pronounciations to make it sound nice. I don't think you can officially make a sentence end in -naku, but lyrics and speechlanguage tend to be not so strict about grammar.
_________________

�@
�Y�����s������

supermidget wrote:

yea i've heard such things a few times as well i think, but as far as I know it's grammatically incorrect. Songs sometimes use strange words or pronounciations to make it sound nice. I don't think you can officially make a sentence end in -naku, but lyrics and speechlanguage tend to be not so strict about grammar.

oooh.. sou desu ne.. yea, maybe that's why i can't find any explanation about this in my japanese language books it's pretty hard to write songs in japanese, i guess thank you so much, supermidget!

kurokage wrote:

oooh.. sou desu ne.. yea, maybe that's why i can't find any explanation about this in my japanese language books it's pretty hard to write songs in japanese, i guess thank you so much, supermidget!

n/p. actually it should be really easy :p since you can screw up the grammar a bit. like leaving out particles in some points, or end sentenses in the -te (continues) form and stuff. but you maybe you're right cause you have to know what you're doing i guess
_________________

�@
�Y�����s������

kurokage wrote:

i sometimes find sentences like this in japanese songs lyric : nasusube mo naku ...demo naku i guessed the sentences actually came from "nasusube mo nai" and "...demo nai". the thing that changed is not "i" from words like furui, samui, etc to form negatives but it's from "nai" itself (i guess) i don't understand in what condition i have to use it anyway (to kokuou too..) thanks for your explanation, i really appreciate it!

Something suddenly came to my mind! there's also two verbs that are 'naku' �Ȃ�

�����@to cry
�‚� to make a sound (like animals)

so 'demo naku' could mean "but I'll cry". Though it sounds so stupid and emotionless that I wouldn't think this is the meaning. Normally i would expect something like:

�����񂾂� i'm crying!!
������� i'm crying!!

not just plain 'naku'. Anyway, I thought I should mention this. Maybe (actually surely ) kokuou has some thoughts on this?
_________________

�@
�Y�����s������

kurokage wrote:

i sometimes find sentences like this in japanese songs lyric : nasusube mo naku ...demo naku i guessed the sentences actually came from "nasusube mo nai" and "...demo nai". the thing that changed is not "i" from words like furui, samui, etc to form negatives but it's from "nai" itself (i guess) i don't understand in what condition i have to use it anyway (to kokuou too..) thanks for your explanation, i really appreciate it!

hehe... you're very welcome

Although Japanese has subordinating conjuctions (albeit, used in different ways than English much of the time), another way Japanese can express that the sentence continues is with the use of �� and ��.

Ex.:

�ق��̒N�ł��Ȃ��A���Ȃ����D���B(Hoka no dare demo naku, anata ga suki.)
"You are the one I love, (and) not anyone else."

��������Ȃ��āA�����ɂ����āB(Soko janakute, koko ni oite.)
"Put it here, (and) not there."

In songs (and colloquial speech), you can use �� and �� to end a sentence, but the underlying idea is that there is something to be said after that.
Either that, or the order of the sentence has been changed for linguistic purposes.

Anyway, HTH,

������
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams

kokuou wrote:

�ق��̒N�ł��Ȃ��A���Ȃ����D���B(Hoka no dare demo naku, anata ga suki.) "You are the one I love, (and) not anyone else."

is this sentence grammatically correct (like: officially); cause I would expect:

�ق��̒N�ł��Ȃ����A���Ȃ����D���B(Hoka no dare demo nakute, anata ga suki.)

if it is, could you explain the difference(s) between �E�E�E�Ȃ� and �E�E�E�Ȃ���?

edit:

I remember something like using the renyoukei to end a "sub-sentence" with and (forgive me for not knowing the english grammatical terms), but I'm not sure of it, since I think I've never come it across anywhere in real life (this sentence sounds bad as well). Then �Ȃ� would be a �A�p�` right??

for example: ���͖‚�J���ӂ� (~the birds are chirping and the rain is falling)
_________________

�@
�Y�����s������

supermidget wrote:

is this sentence grammatically correct (like: officially); cause I would expect: �ق��̒N�ł��Ȃ����A���Ȃ����D���B(Hoka no dare demo nakute, anata ga suki.) if it is, could you explain the difference(s) between �E�E�E�Ȃ� and �E�E�E�Ȃ���? edit: I remember something like using the renyoukei to end a "sub-sentence" with and (forgive me for not knowing the english grammatical terms), but I'm not sure of it, since I think I've never come it across anywhere in real life (this sentence sounds bad as well). Then �Ȃ� would be a �A�p�` right?? for example: ���͖‚�J���ӂ� (~the birds are chirping and the rain is falling)

Hmm... that's a hard one to explain.

I'm not too sure about the linguistic reason, but in the above sentence

�ق��̒N�ł��Ȃ��A���Ȃ����D���B

only having �Ȃ� emphasizes the fact that "I like YOU."

Doesn't sound right with other verbs, though:

*�P�[�L��H�ׂȂ��A�O�ɏo���B
("*" signifies ungrammatical sentences)

BUT

�P�[�L��H�ׂ邱�Ƃ��Ȃ��A�O�ɏo���B

is OK.

My conclusion for now:

This can only be used with the verb ���� in the negative (�Ȃ�).
I'll try and find a more comprehensive explanation, so bear with me.

������
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams

supermidget wrote:

is this sentence grammatically correct (like: officially); cause I would expect: �ق��̒N�ł��Ȃ��āA���Ȃ����D���B(Hoka no dare demo nakute, anata ga suki.) if it is, could you explain the difference(s) between �E�E�E�Ȃ� and �E�E�E�Ȃ���?

aahh.. you just remind me that i also find something like that too in lyrics, words like setsunakute, etc.. and until now i still can't figure out what it means or what makes it different with -naku

kokuou wrote:

Hmm... that's a hard one to explain. I'm not too sure about the linguistic reason, but in the above sentence �ق��̒N�ł��Ȃ��A���Ȃ����D���B only having �Ȃ� emphasizes the fact that "I like YOU." Doesn't sound right with other verbs, though: *�P�[�L��H�ׂȂ��A�O�ɏo���B ("*" signifies ungrammatical sentences) BUT �P�[�L��H�ׂ邱�Ƃ��Ȃ��A�O�ɏo���B is OK. My conclusion for now: This can only be used with the verb ���� in the negative (�Ȃ�). I'll try and find a more comprehensive explanation, so bear with me. ������

about your explanation on -naku, i guess it's right that song lyrics always have another sentence to follow the ..demo naku.
thanks for ALL explanations you wrote, kokuou and supermidget! [/quote]

How do you pronounce japanese words with double "tt"s and "ii"s and "pp"s?

shitsumon ga aru...

is there an onomatopoeia for expressing "together?" basically the opposite of "betsu betsu" which i understand to mean "separately."

baasheep39 wrote:

How do you pronounce japanese words with double "tt"s and "ii"s and "pp"s?

First, welcome to the formus

<phonetic explanation>
Double consonants represent a longer stop than usual between the approach and release phases of stop phonemes.
</phonetic explanation>

Here's what that means in layman's terms:

Take the words:

�� [����] kata - shoulder

and

������ [������] katta - past tense of 'buy'

In the first, you can pronounce it just like it looks with the regular amount of stop time between the 'a' in the first syllable and the 'a' in the second syllable.

For the second, however, say 'kat', but hold your breath (you should be able to feel a little amount of pressure building up in your mouth) for about half a second before you release the 't' and pronounce the final 'ta'.

The only difference in the words is in the length of articulation pronouncing the 't'.


As for long vowels, you just increase the length of that particular vowel (so that is is about double the length that it would be regularly).

Ex.:

���� [����] kita - past tense of 'come'

and

������ [������] kiita - past tense of 'hear' or 'ask'

Just articulate the 'i' in the second for a little longer than you ususally would.

Something like the difference in length of the vowels in the following English words:

feet - [fit] - Long 'i'

me - [mi:] - Short 'i'

Now, some may argue that they are the same, and in fact, they are in their underlying form. There is a difference, however, for most speakers of English. Say the words a few times to yourself to see if you can feel the difference in length.
Japanese is like the above, but the long vowels are just a tad longer.


Anyway, I hope that explanation helped.

������
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams

Tu_triky wrote:

shitsumon ga aru... is there an onomatopoeia for expressing "together?" basically the opposite of "betsu betsu" which i understand to mean "separately."

�ʁX (or 'betsu-betsu') is not an onomatopoeic sound.

It may sound like one because of the structure of the word, but like the following words, the doubling of the word merely emphasizes (or in some cases pluralizes) the meaning of the word.

Some other examples are:

�؁X [����] (kigi) - trees
�l�X [�ЂƂт�] (hitobito) - people
���X [�Ђ�] (hibi) - days
�X [��������] (aoao) - fresh and green
���X [���܂���] (shimajima) - many (little) islands
�U�X [���񂴂�] (sanzan) - severly, terribly (used in less than ideal situations)

Now, there may be a word in which repetition occurs for meaning "together," but I can't think of one at the moment.

HTH,

������
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams

kokuou wrote:

�ʁX (or 'betsu-betsu') is not an onomatopoeic sound. It may sound like one because of the structure of the word, but like the following words, the doubling of the word merely emphasizes (or in some cases pluralizes) the meaning of the word. Some other examples are: �؁X [����] (kigi) - trees �l�X [�ЂƂт�] (hitobito) - people ���X [�Ђ�] (hibi) - days �X [��������] (aoao) - fresh and green ���X [���܂���] (shimajima) - many (little) islands �U�X [���񂴂�] (sanzan) - severly, terribly (used in less than ideal situations) Now, there may be a word in which repetition occurs for meaning "together," but I can't think of one at the moment. HTH, ������

thx!

Thank you so much! I get it now!!!

I'm not sure if anyone asked before... but I just vaguely understand the contraction of �ƌ��� or �ƌ����� into ����... Exactly what is it a contraction of?�@�ƌ����A�ƌ����āA�ƌ������H Could someone provide me a few examples of it's use?

The only use I'm little sure of is:

�s�����āD�D�D ~ (he/she/I) said that he/she/I will go

Like the simplest way to quote someone.
_________________

supermidget wrote:

I'm not sure if anyone asked before... but I just vaguely understand the contraction of �ƌ��� or �ƌ����� into ����... Exactly what is it a contraction of?�@�ƌ����A�ƌ����āA�ƌ������H Could someone provide me a few examples of it's use? The only use I'm little sure of is: �s�����āD�D�D ~ (he/she/I) said that he/she/I will go Like the simplest way to quote someone.

���� is exactly the same as ��. In almost all situations, you can use them interchangebly. The only real difference is that ���� is a little less polite than ��.

Ex:

�ނ͈ꏏ�ɍs���ƌ����܂����B(Kare ha issho ni iku to iimashita.)
"He said (that) he was going together (with us/him/her/etc)."

�ނ͈ꏏ�ɍs�����Č����܂����B(Kare ha issho ni iku tte iimashita.)
"He said (that) he was going together (with us/him/her/etc)."


�u��D������v�Ə����Ă���B(Daisuki dayo to kaite aru.)
"It says (lit. 'it is written') 'I love you'."

�u��D������v���������B(Daisuki dayo tte kaite aru.)
"It says (lit. 'it is written') 'I love you'."


�Ȃ񂾂ƁH(Nan da to?)
"What did (you/he/she/they) say?"

�Ȃ񂾂��āH(Nan datte?)
"What did (you/he/she/they) say?"

There is a little difference in usage in the above two examples, but syntactically, they mean the same thing.


With the above �s������..., all the speaker is doing is leaving out the last part because the listener knows that the end is going to be "I said" or "I wrote" or something.
However, when you leave off the last part (�����܂���/������/etc.), it's usually the ���� used, and not the �� (although, that doesn't mean it's not possible to use it).

HTH,

������
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams