MonsterZero-65 wrote:

I only hope they realize why it failed. Casting issues, and poor timing etc. My fear is they may assume movies about Japan do not sell and stop making movies that feature Japanese themes/history etc. That would be a pity.

I was just going to make a similar point.

Hollywood, listen up. Casting is important. Would you cast a light-skinned Asian guy to play the role of Prime Minister Churchill? No?? OK I'll try again later.

MonsterZero-65 wrote:

I only hope they realize why it failed. Casting issues, and poor timing etc. My fear is they may assume movies about Japan do not sell and stop making movies that feature Japanese themes/history etc. That would be a pity.

agreed...i just hate the idea that some of these ppl make these sloppy ass decisions and think it's not going to affect how they are perceived.

MonsterZero-65 wrote:

I only hope they realize why it failed. Casting issues, and poor timing etc. My fear is they may assume movies about Japan do not sell and stop making movies that feature Japanese themes/history etc. That would be a pity.

I would not be unhappy if Hollywood stopped making movies about Japan and the Japanese. As I asked on this thread way back, would you go see a movie about the American Civil War made by the French? I say if you want to see Japanese-themed movies, go see movies made by the Japanese. Even the few Hollywood movies about the Japanese-American experience have been pretty bad. The movie about JA internment during WWII (I forget the title, but it had the word "Paradise" in it) had as the lead character, a white guy. The Karate Kid movies featured an idealized stereotype. I think you have to go back to 1951 to find a Hollywood movie that did a decent job in focusing on an aspect of the Japanese-American experience; it was the movie Go For Broke about the 442nd Regimental Combat Team. Even in that movie, however, the main character was a white guy.

shin2 wrote:

The movie about JA internment during WWII (I forget the title, but it had the word "Paradise" in it) had as the lead character, a white guy.

Come See The Paradise... Dennis Quaid and Tamlyn Tomita.

Quote:

The Karate Kid movies featured an idealized stereotype.

Tamlyn Tomita again.

Quote:

I think you have to go back to 1951 to find a Hollywood movie that did a decent job in focusing on an aspect of the Japanese-American experience; it was the movie Go For Broke about the 442nd Regimental Combat Team. Even in that movie, however, the main character was a white guy.

Van Johnson.

shin2 wrote:

I would not be unhappy if Hollywood stopped making movies about Japan and the Japanese. As I asked on this thread way back, would you go see a movie about the American Civil War made by the French?

or better still, made by the japanese with japanese actors! would beat takeshi be on the north or the southern side?!

kenjilina wrote:

or better still, made by the japanese with japanese actors! would beat takeshi be on the north or the southern side?!

With his supersized ego and off-beat perspective, he'd probably change north and south to east and west, portray Lincoln as a yakuza oyabun, Grant as a homosexual psychotic, and Lee as a giant turd.

kenjilina wrote:

would beat takeshi be on the north or the southern side?!

I would think he'd play twin brothers on opposing sides of the war...

I really fail to see why people are so up in arms about the producers casting three chinese actors as the leads. They are actors, they portray characters and I can't see the logic behind the argument that for a movie about Japanese people you need to cast Japanese actors. Furthermore, you're complaining about using Chinese actors to portray Japanese Geisha, in a film written by a middle aged Jewish dude, and directed by a choreographer turned director (Rob Marshall). Films are greenlighted based on what the studios thing they can make, and for Miramax to give that kind of budget to this kind of film (period AND with virtually an all asian cast), they needed to hedge their bets by casting names recognizable to American audiences (because the American audience makes up for roughly a third to a half of a film's worldwide boxoffice).

The film failed mainly because the lead actress COULDN'T SPEAK ENGLISH. It would have been passable if they had taken out her dialogue and replaced it with the voice over they used in the beginning. On top of it, it was poorly paced, and overwrought. The direction looked like Rob Marshall saw one too many Wong Kar Wai, or newer Zhang Zimou movies and decided that, a film about asian should look like that. Highly exoticised, and stylized, -but he didn't have the patience of either director. In this respect Rob Marshall was as much at fault as Ziyi for the failure of the film.

superfuzzy3 wrote:

I really fail to see why people are so up in arms about the producers casting three chinese actors as the leads. They are actors, they portray characters and I can't see the logic behind the argument that for a movie about Japanese people you need to cast Japanese actors. Furthermore, you're complaining about using Chinese actors to portray Japanese Geisha, in a film written by a middle aged Jewish dude, and directed by a choreographer turned director (Rob Marshall). Films are greenlighted based on what the studios thing they can make, and for Miramax to give that kind of budget to this kind of film (period AND with virtually an all asian cast), they needed to hedge their bets by casting names recognizable to American audiences (because the American audience makes up for roughly a third to a half of a film's worldwide boxoffice). The film failed mainly because the lead actress COULDN'T SPEAK ENGLISH. It would have been passable if they had taken out her dialogue and replaced it with the voice over they used in the beginning. On top of it, it was poorly paced, and overwrought. The direction looked like Rob Marshall saw one too many Wong Kar Wai, or newer Zhang Zimou movies and decided that, a film about asian should look like that. Highly exoticised, and stylized, -but he didn't have the patience of either director. In this respect Rob Marshall was as much at fault as Ziyi for the failure of the film.

it's been beat to death already....you really should read some of the previous posts because many of the points you made have already been mentioned...ad nauseum.

...no offense...b/c i agree with much of what you said...but it's not merely a failure to speak proper english...it fails miserably because it proports to be something it's not....a film about the life of geishas.

Hi everybody,

I just learned about this forum yesterday, and I hope I'm doing this right. I'm a Japanese female who grew up in L.A. but now live in Japan, saw Memoirs of a Geisha at the theater, decided to discuss it with people of non-Japanese culture, then someone on another forum suggested I come here.

Now, actually, I don't care about the Chinese actresses and all that. It's Hollywood entertainment originating from an English novel written by an American. Why stick to Japanese actresses now.

What I do want to know however is this. You guys generally seem to be originating in non-Japanese culture, but know a lot about Japanese culture at the same time. So let me ask you this.

Did you really find the geisha's beautiful? Because, I'm sorry, I did not. And what can be more aweful than a geisha movie without pretty geisha?

Let me tell you that I do think that the "actresses" are beautiful. All three Chinese actresses are very popular in Japan, and I have nothing against it. But why make them look so bony in kimonos? Why do the "bad gals" (including Yuki Kudo) have messy "mage" hair even when they go to the ozashiki? Why must they wear their naga-juban like a skirt, even at the proper mizuage? (draping is okay, but the fabric should cling more tightly to their legs, don't you think?)

I mean, I thought it was a scene of a low-down cheap old geisha going to work, and turns out that she is the 2nd top geisha in hanamachi. Don't you guys think that a bony geisha is like a bony Marie Antoinette in robe decollete? They aren't sexy.

But I'm not trying to complain here. I'm just puzzled that they deliberately make the geisha's so ugly. I plainly don't understand. But I WANT to understand.

Tell me, in America, is Hatsumomo supposed to be prettier than Yoshinaga Sayuri?

Please ignore me, if this is too off-topic.

wow, some good points all raised in this thread...

i'm planning on watching this movie tomorrow in theatres... tho i dunno why i am because of all the bad things ive heard of it... and i dunno, i would rather them be speaking japanese tho it is obviously impossible since they are chinese (and i understand that since the book was written for westerners, who cares if its in english as well?)... but thats just a personal thing. i believe that it'd be more japanese if it were in the native language. i've accepted the fact that the three leading actresses are chinese, and i hope that they are as pretty as they are described in the book (tho uco you say that they're not portrayed as beautiful at all...) so i guess we'll see...

i dont think it's going to be an accurate portrayal of geisha or japan by any means... but i did like the book... so i guess i'll be back tomorrow or the day after with thoughts on the movie....
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Here is an interesting article I found on Memoirs of a Geisha from a business perspective. This article is from Bloomberg.com through the NewsonJapan website:


William Pesek Jr. is a columnist for Bloomberg News. The opinions expressed are his own.

`Geisha' Offers Asian Business Lessons: William Pesek (Update1)
Jan. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Roger Ebert put it well: ``I suspect that the more you know about Japan and movies, the less you will enjoy ``Memoirs of a Geisha.''

So began the Chicago Sun Times critic's review of a film that's created more hard feelings than buzz in Asia. It's not the reception U.S. director Rob Marshall anticipated; he thought completing the first big-budget Hollywood production with an all- Asian cast would endear him to Asian audiences.

Yet Japanese have been put off by the casting of Chinese in main roles and made claims of cultural insensitivity. Chinese are outraged that actresses Zhang Ziyi and Gong Li appear in a film that romanticizes Japan during World War II -- and that Zhang did a love scene with a Japanese man. Americans, meanwhile, seem indifferent, if tepid box-office receipts are any guide.

The dustup actually offers some insights for Asian governments trying to get along, corporate executives struggling to compete and investors grappling to make sense of it all.

The film at the center of this controversy isn't a very good one. A highly simplified adaptation of Arthur Golden's 1997 novel, it's the tale of a poor fisherman's daughter who is sold into quasi-slavery in Kyoto in 1929 and, against all odds, eventually becomes the city's reigning geisha.

`Desperate Housewives' in Kimonos

The subtleties of Golden's book, its almost Flaubertian attention to detail and historical context, are lost on the film. It's less about Japan or the stillness, grace and traditions of one of its most rarefied cultural icons than backstage bitchery.

Above all, it's a movie about beautiful, exotically dressed women hissing and backstabbing to become Kyoto's premier geisha and win the men they love. At first glance, it seems like a Jane Austen tale with some Charles Dickens tossed in. The end product plays more like ``Desperate Housewives'' in kimonos.

Even so, ``Memoirs of a Geisha'' has become an unlikely flashpoint in Japan-Chinese relations. Timely, too.

Asia's boom is fraught with risks including power struggles, high energy prices, terrorism, pollution and economic competition from the West. Sadly, the leaders of Japan and China can't even get in a room together and talk without trading recriminations over World War II. Just like director Marshall, the leaders of Japan and China are missing the real story and focusing on the theatrics surrounding it.

Misguided Criticism

Japan's qualms with ``Memoirs of a Geisha'' miss a bigger point relevant to Asia's largest economy. Yes, a film with so specific a setting should star Japanese. While many seethe that major roles went to Zhang, Gong and Malaysian actress Michelle Yeoh, Marshall also has a point. His casting decisions reflect a dearth of internationally known Japanese actors who can speak English.

After all, Hollywood wouldn't have made the film if it wouldn't appeal to the lucrative, yet subtitle-adverse U.S. market. One reason there are few globally known Japanese actors: Japan's large domestic market creates few incentives for film studios and actors to search for audiences or projects abroad.

There's a lesson here for Japan Inc. Japanese are ravenous consumers and, until now, a 127 million-person market seemed big enough. As sales soared in the heady 1980s and stayed reasonably brisk during the recession-plagued 1990s, companies were slow to look abroad.

Gadget-Crazy

Take the mobile-telephone industry, an area in which gadget- crazy Japan is hard to beat. Yet you can't use the vast majority of the phones or their functionality overseas. That insular focus is a problem amid Japan's rapidly aging population and competition from countries such as South Korea. The real story behind the ``Memoirs of a Geisha'' ruckus is that corporate Japan needs to think more globally.

Japan's economy is recovering, as evidenced by last year's 40 percent rally in the Nikkei 225 Stock Average. Yet Japan Inc.'s future prosperity depends on looking to new markets.

Chinese critics are missing the point, too. Seeing homegrown actresses eclipse Japan's should be reason to celebrate China's rising dominance not only in the area of economics, but culture. Instead, nationalist tendencies are spoiling this moment in the spotlight.

When it comes to Asia's past, there's plenty of blame to go around. Japan needs to go further to apologize for its atrocities and its prime minister should stop visiting a Tokyo shrine honoring some convicted war criminals among the war dead. China isn't blameless either as it foments a volatile strain of nationalism that increasingly unnerves its neighbors in Asia.

Finally, there's a lesson here for investors. While it may come as a surprise to folks in the West, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans don't tend to think they look alike. Hollywood's who'd- know-the-difference mindset in casting films is comparable to how some investors view Asia. Some see it as an undifferentiated collection of nations that are hard to get their arms around.

Hollywood Ending

Asia's economies are incredibly diverse. Those who think China's rise is a repeat of Japan's do so at their own peril. The same is true of India's development versus China's. If you think Europe is having a tough time getting the 12 euro zone economies on similar footing, just wait until Asia tries.

Foreign filmmakers can take artistic license with their casting decisions. They are free to make assumptions about Asians' appearances. Such oversimplification isn't an option for those looking to make money in the region. Respecting the vast differences that exist here may help investors find the Hollywood ending they seek.


[/i]

wow. interesting article, enna. thanks for posting it

i finally got my butt to the theatre and watched memoirs of a geisha yesterday. i had expected much worse, to tell you the truth. it did follow the main points of the book but again, yes, it did seem to concentrate on the backstabbing and the jealousy between the geishas, which i guess is to be expected since they only have a certain amount of time, and they tried to jam pack the stuff in that would make the movie go to its end... which required jealous geishas and catfights and all.... but i dunno. i thought the ending was wayyy rushed... they didnt show enough like the book did to make it believable... i wouldve preferred a movie IN japanese because that wouldve made it more of a japanese film from the start but of course its westernized and yes... i think ive beaten that into the ground already. but i wouldve much rathered a japanese version of a film about a geisha's life than one thats westernized. tho that would prolly not happen, since the lives of geishas are not supposed to be told...

as for the geishas, i thought that they did look beautiful in some scenes. err, certain ones tho. zhang ziyi on the night of her debut, i thought, looked pretty good. and gong li is very beautiful, tho more so without the white makeup i think. hehe. michelle yeoh, i loved her english... but to me she seemed too old for the role... i dunno. i wouldve much preferred japanese actresses but its hollywood, yea? so i'm glad that the movie did surpass my rather low expectations. lol.

and apparently geisha won the award for best soundtrack at the 11th critics' choice awards... lol. i was bored last night and decided to watch it
_________________

great article enna!

some of the points i agree with and some i don't. however, i think it's obvious the film makers didn't realise they were going to open a huge can of worms. perhaps next time they should look deeper into a nation's or region's cultural differences before they decide that the audience won't notice or care.

just bought the novel and got 2 free movies tix! yayyy^^
now stressing who to invite....

phew.. i found this topic.
i utterly disapprove of the 3 chinese main actresses having to play the lead roles.. the movie being japanese and geisha. it really doesn't have the same impact as well as having japanese people acting these parts.
i'd rather having the movie speaking in full japanese, than forcing it to be spoken in english by casting "already-famous" chinese actresses, who slightly know english. though, michelle yeo is actually chinese malaysian, so she would already speaks english...

i mean, i don't have anything against these actresses (zhang ziyi, michelle yeo, gong li). but i'd rather have an unknown japanese women playing the parts... or i bet there are plenty of japanese actresses able to play these parts..

i'll still watch this movie..

last but not least, i, often can tell whether a person is japanese, korean or chinese... of course, not always 100% correct, but many times i got it right.. uhm, the comment "all asians look alike" is rather shallow... because, i got that comment straight from a friend, about me. and i am neither korean or japanese or fully chinese.. but i'm asian.

-

Yes. Why is it that Hollywood uses Asians so 'freely' in their choice of casting and ethnic roles? I know this may prove to be a sensitive topic, so I'll keep my big mouthed opinions to a minimum.....
They (Hollywood) almost always seems to use Chinese to portray Japanese roles... That is something that I highly disapprove of.
They always seem to be able to find Chinese actors/actress for Chinese made roles, however the Japanese (and Korean) roles almost always seem to be compromised.
IMO They need to do something about that.
_________________

Okay, so not many people seem to think that the geisha's were ugly. I don't have a problem with that.

About casting the Chinese, for one thing, the Chinese share a much more larger population on this planet than the Japanese or Koreans, therefore we have more chances of witnessing the Chinese than the Japanese.

Secondly, actually I think it's GOOD that the characters were played by the Chinese. It adds exoticness to the characters. The Japanese title of the novel and movie itself is "SAYURI" in capital alphabet letters, which implies that what we (the audience of Japan) are going to see is something foreign.

Also, as long as the movie is aimed to either an English-speaking or a worldwide audience, I think that at least Mameha HAD to be played by someone as "big" as Michelle Yeoh, because (A) when the audience catch a glimpse of her as Chiyo returns the damaged kimono, the audience must realise "Oh, it's her!" and (B) when she appears to Chiyo's okiya revealing herself from the umbrella, she has to have a very strong impact, and it was because it was Yeoh that that scene gave me goosebumps even though I find the way she walks to be very un-Japanese.

If they're going to cast Japanese performers, the majority of the crew must be Japanese too. Otherwise, they would just ruin each other.

Uco wrote:

Okay, so not many people seem to think that the geisha's were ugly. I don't have a problem with that. About casting the Chinese, for one thing, the Chinese share a much more larger population on this planet than the Japanese or Koreans, therefore we have more chances of witnessing the Chinese than the Japanese. Secondly, actually I think it's GOOD that the characters were played by the Chinese. It adds exoticness to the characters. The Japanese title of the novel and movie itself is "SAYURI" in capital alphabet letters, which implies that what we (the audience of Japan) are going to see is something foreign. Also, as long as the movie is aimed to either an English-speaking or a worldwide audience, I think that at least Mameha HAD to be played by someone as "big" as Michelle Yeoh, because (A) when the audience catch a glimpse of her as Chiyo returns the damaged kimono, the audience must realise "Oh, it's her!" and (B) when she appears to Chiyo's okiya revealing herself from the umbrella, she has to have a very strong impact, and it was because it was Yeoh that that scene gave me goosebumps even though I find the way she walks to be very un-Japanese. If they're going to cast Japanese performers, the majority of the crew must be Japanese too. Otherwise, they would just ruin each other.

I really can't judge whether or not the geisha's were ugly in this film or not by your standards, because I am not Japanese and I do not know the precise history of what qualifies a geisha as ugly or not. You mentioned the hairstyles and kimonos to be specific so if they were not accurate in terms of the actual historical geishas I would not know.

I have to disagree with you Uco on the idea that someone 'big' had to play Mameha. Maybe for you that held true but not for me. When I first saw the movie Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon I didn't go because I knew any of those actors. I wanted to experience Chinese actors and actresses playing Chinese. Now I realize that this movie Memoirs of a Geisha was mostly made for a Western audience by a Western director and producer but the movie was ABOUT Japanese culture and people so why not get it right?

Unfortunately Hollywood has been getting it wrong for decade after decade. I can still remember when I was was quite young that the only actors playing Native Americans on the big screen were either Italian or Jewish. They spoke in halting, broken, pidgin English. How insulting!!! I have seen Ricardo Montalban play a Japanese kabuki performer in the movie Sayonara. I have seen Rita Moreno play an Asian woman in the musical The King and I. I even saw Ava Gardner play a mulatto in the musical Showboat. I also saw Mickey Rooney playing an over- the-top caricature of a Japanese man in Breakfast at Tiffany's. Enough!!!!!!!!! As long as the actors or actresses were classified as 'exotic' than they were cast in what Hollywood deemed as 'exotic' roles. This is why the casting bothered me so much! There are so many talented actors and actresses in this world, so why couldn't we at least have seen or been introduced to some wonderful talented Japanese actresess in this film. Hollywood dropped the ball once again. Maybe in the next decade they will finally get it right!

well, at least hollywood isn't doing blackface for african americans, and squinty eyed white guys with pencil mustaches with chicklets buck teeth washing laundry anymore.