ribi wrote:

What does "bimyou" mean - I've checked my Japanese dictionary but it does not seem to make much sense to me. It's described as "subtle, delicate, ticklish" - is that correct?

The real meaning of 'bimyou' is just like your dictionary said: "subtle, delicate."

However, it is also used as a slang term.

It can be used to describe things that you don't think are good, but not bad either.

Eg:

A����F �u�P�[�L�̖��͂ǂ��H�v�@(Cake no aji ha dou?)
B����F �u��[�A�����c�v (n-, bimyou...)

A: "How does the cake taste?"
B: "Umm... well, it's not the worst cake i've ever eaten..."

That's going a little towards the very colloquial side for a translation, but you get the picture. I hope that helps a bit.

������
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams

kokuou wrote:

I've never heard the term �i��� used to describe someone. I've checked in my dictionary and a couple of other resources and can't find a thing. If you could provide the context that it was in, it might be helpful �i��� is a noun that refers to the format or the process of doing something. Eg: �ނ͌������̒i���𐮂����B(Kare ha kekkonshiki no dandori wo totonoeta.) "He made the arrangements for the wedding ceremony." �d���͗��N����̒i��肾�B(Shigoto ha raigetsu kara no dandori da.) (In the format of things,) That job will start next year. HTH, ������

Haha neither have I.

The comment was: kare wa ii hito, dandori jouzu as well as dandori sugi.
Don't suppose it helps much, does it?

If a person is described as �i��� (dandori) does it mean he/she is very methodical?

jade_frost wrote:

Haha neither have I. The comment was: kare wa ii hito, dandori jouzu as well as dandori sugi. Don't suppose it helps much, does it?

Ohh... now it makes sense

�i�����(dandori jouzu) would be something along the lines like "good at planning," or as you suggested (in certain contexts, however), "methodical."

�i���߂�(dandori sugi) would suggest that he has to plan things too much. It might be translated as "somewhat of a control freak" in limited contexts. In any case, it means that he has to make a stucture or steps for everything. I have a friend who is �i���߂�... I guess the fact that I am �i��肶��Ȃ��߂� is the reason we get along so well

HTH,

������
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams

gahh..maybe next time i can come here and ask all sorts of questions about japanese haha.. my japanese sucks.. i can't carry a conversation properly with my teacher haha! can someone explain to me about
�`�ďグ��A�`�Ă����A�`�Ă��炤... i just can't seem to get it..as in for example:

���͐搶�Ɏ�`���Ă��炢�܂��B

so does this sentence means i helped the teacher or i got help from the teacher...or did i get the particles wrongly.. gahh...i just don't understand who is the receiver and who is the giver...

yanjun wrote:

gahh..maybe next time i can come here and ask all sorts of questions about japanese haha.. my japanese sucks.. i can't carry a conversation properly with my teacher haha! can someone explain to me about �`�ďグ��A�`�Ă����A�`�Ă��炤... i just can't seem to get it..as in for example: ���͐搶�Ɏ�`���Ă��炢�܂��B so does this sentence means i helped the teacher or i got help from the teacher...or did i get the particles wrongly.. gahh...i just don't understand who is the receiver and who is the giver...

I know how tough this can be.
Boy do I remember the days when I hated Japanese just because of this one grammar point (something like this �� )

Anyway, it's an easy pattern, you just have to remember them.

���炤 means 'to recieve', so when you hear it used with other verbs, just think ('recieve' + verb). ������ you should have down pat as 'to give', as it is one of the first verbs you learn. ����� also means 'to give' but you will hardly ever (if at all) hear something like:

�u�������Ȃ��ɂ��������ꂽ�B�v (watashi ga anata ni okane wo kureta.)
(I gave money to you).

Since ����� is a verb used to say that someone gives something to someone else (with the underlying sense that the reciever is grateful), saying ��������� sounds a bit self-righteous. Gramatically OK, but semantically strange.

Anyway, here are the three patterns.

���́@A�Ɂ@��`���ā@���炤�B (I receive help from A.)
���Ɂ@A���@��`���ā@�����B (A gives help to me.)
���́@A�Ɂ@��`���ā@������B (I give help to A.)

�y������z
With ������, the giver is the subject, so it should be marked with a ��. This shouldn't be such a hard concept to remember because it's used all the time (SUBJ �� VERB ����).


�y���炤�z
The person receiving the action ALWAYS is marked with ��. The person giving the action is ALWAYS marked with a ��.
Think of it this way if it's easier to understand:

You're still the subject, but your pulling the action towards yourself.


�y�����z
Here, the person giving the action is ALWAYS marked with �� and the person receiving the action is marked with a ��.
This is like the above, but it's more like the action giver is pushing the action towards you.

If you are a little more advanced in Japanese, you may know that �� can also be used to mark subjects. So with ����� the subject is actually the person GIVING the action TO someone else. That's why the person receiving the action gets the ��, because the action it going TO them.


So that's my lesson for today.
It may have confused more than helped, but you can't say I didn't try

G'night all.

������
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams

kokuou wrote:

The real meaning of 'bimyou' is just like your dictionary said: "subtle, delicate." However, it is also used as a slang term. It can be used to describe things that you don't think are good, but not bad either.

Thanks a lot! That really clears things up.
And I've learnt from that lesson about ageru, kureru and morau too.
It's certainly very very helpful..

mina san konbanwa!

at the beginning of gwen stafani's what you waiting for tune, a japanese girl says 'hokoten'. what does it mean?

oshiete kudasai. onegai shimasu!

woow...thanks for that!!! and yes...that's exactly the reason why i hate japanese now cuz i dunno what's going on in lessons lol...understood much more from the explanations...hahah thankkks!!!

oh and another very very irritating one... passive form and causative form.. �g���`�@and ��g�`...and the combination of both...sorry for the trouble...but i'm really getting a headache over these forms..

yanjun wrote:

woow...thanks for that!!! and yes...that's exactly the reason why i hate japanese now cuz i dunno what's going on in lessons lol...understood much more from the explanations...hahah thankkks!!! oh and another very very irritating one... passive form and causative form.. �g���`�@and ��g�`...and the combination of both...sorry for the trouble...but i'm really getting a headache over these forms..

Causative:
'seru' and 'saseru'

these auxiliary verbs are used to make sentences that mean:
"to let(or make) someone do something"

Which one to choose depends on whether the main verb is of the 4 group (yodankatsuyou) or the 2 group (nidankatsuyou). The group with 4 forms takes 'saseru' and the 2 group takes 'seru'. The aux. verb is added to the same base you also use for '-nai'. The causative form has the sense of 'forcing' someone a bit.

miru (2) -> mi.saseru (to let/make one see, don't confuse with 'miseru'=to show)
taberu (2) -> tabe.saseru (to let one eat)
wakaru (4) -> waka.ra.seru (to let one understand. ofcourse you would use another word meaning 'explain' instead.)
nomu (4) -> noma.seru (to let one drink)

isha ha boku ni kusuri wo nomaseta
"The doctor made me drink a medicine"

ryoushin ha kodomo ni hayaku nesasemasu
"the parents make the children go to bed early"



=========
Passive:
'reru' and 'rareru'

What we had to learn, was that passive can be used in 4 ways. I suggest u remember the 4 as a list in ur head:

- honorable form
- passive form
- potential form
- 'troubling / bothering' form

The same rules to which aux. verb to choose are the same as for 'seru'. The short one for group4 and the long one for group2. It is also put after the 'nai' base. Excuse me for keeping forgetting the names of the bases -_- (oh i checked its mizenkei)


Honorable:
- sensei ha itsu ka koraremasu ka?
"when will you come, sir?" (to teacher)


Normal Passive:
- pan ha tabe.rareta
"the bread was eaten"
the meaning of this sentence is I think the same as saying: "pan ha tabete
aru"
- kyou, tori ha uchi no neko ni korosareta
"Today a bird was killed by our cat" (which is actually true lol)

Potential:
- sonna no wo taberarenai yo!
"I can't each such a thing!" or "Such things are not eadible!"


Passive form of bother:

(on my univ. we call it "meiwaku no ukemi" ���f�̎�g but it seems that japanese have usually never heard of this term :S)

this form might be difficult to understand at first. Basically, it is used to describe that something happened to you, and you are bothered by it / you don't like it. The use of the particles might be especially confusing.

- Boku ga gaki ni jitensha wo nusumareta n da yo!
"My bike has been stolen by some brat!"
(litterally: "I got my bike stolen by some brat!" i this correct english? if not, some things you can't say in english that you Can in japanese)

- keiki wo kodomo ni taberareta
"(what a bother) the kids ate (my / the) cake"
(litterally: "i got my cake eaten by the kids")

pay special attention to the particles:
- keiki ga kodomo ni taberareta
"the cake has been eaten by the kids"

========

Hope this helps, good luck! If there's any mistake, i'm sorry - and please correct me.
_________________

�@
�Y�����s������

I forgot to explain the combined form of Seru and Reru:

You add -reru AFTER -seru. Don't forget! Both aux. verbs are of group 2, so the mizenkei stems are 're-' and 'se-' *or* 'rare-' and 'sare-'

seru+rareru=serareru but can become 'sareru'
saseru + rareru = saserareru but can become 'sasareru'


- sha'in ha shachou ni juugojikan hataraka.se.rare.te imasu!
"The employees are being forced by their boss to work 15 hours long"
- gakusei ha sensei ni hon wo yoma.se.rare.ta
"The students were forced to read a book by their teacher"

The ones actually DOING the action are subject (sha'in HA = the employees). The one that makes them do it is marked by "NI". Note that this is Opposite of normal causative forms where the 'forcer' is the subject.

My book says it can also be used in the 'honorable' way, using saseru as an honorable auxiliary verb as well. But it seems very old fashioned since saseru was only an honorable word in old japanese.


[edit]
As a joke (some kind of humor -_-) our teacher made us (causative ) learn a sentence with like million auxiliary verbs in it:

�u�������т�H�ׂ�����ꂽ���Ȃ���΁A���{�ɍs���p����Ȃ���v
-mainichi gohan wo tabesaseraretakunakereba, nihon ni iku beki janai yo!
"If you don't want them to force you to eat rice every day, you shouldn't go to japan!"



Just remembering this sentence makes u never forget the order of the auxiliary words hehe
[/edit]
_________________

kenjilina wrote:

mina san konbanwa! at the beginning of gwen stafani's what you waiting for tune, a japanese girl says 'hokoten'. what does it mean? oshiete kudasai. onegai shimasu!

machigai shimashita!

the song is harajuku girls by gwen stafani.

kenjilina wrote:

machigai shimashita! the song is harajuku girls by gwen stafani.

i checked the song, she might says "hokote", in the dictionary it's not a word, but there's a verb "hokoru" that means "to boast of/being proud of"... hokote would then mean "i'm proud of it (...)" followed by something else...

To this point, i'm still not sure how to interpret "-te" forms of verbs when nothing follows...

(btw: you can't "machigai suru". "machigai" is a substantivated form (made into a noun) of "machigau" which means "to make a mistake", correctly saying 'I made a mistake' would be "machigaimashita!")
_________________

�@
�Y�����s������

supermidget wrote:

i checked the song, she might says "hokote", in the dictionary it's not a word, but there's a verb "hokoru" that means "to boast of/being proud of"... hokote would then mean "i'm proud of it (...)" followed by something else... To this point, i'm still not sure how to interpret "-te" forms of verbs when nothing follows... (btw: you can't "machigai suru". "machigai" is a substantivated form (made into a noun) of "machigau" which means "to make a mistake", correctly saying 'I made a mistake' would be "machigaimashita!")

machigai suru no wa machigaimashita! you are quite right. thanks.

i looked on the lyric sheet of harajuku girls and hokoten is definitely written down. the 'ten' of hokoten is the same as the ten in tengoku. does that shed any light?

omoshiroi ne!

kenjilina wrote:

machigai suru no wa machigaimashita! you are quite right. thanks. i looked on the lyric sheet of harajuku girls and hokoten is definitely written down. the 'ten' of hokoten is the same as the ten in tengoku. does that shed any light? omoshiroi ne!

if you have the lyrics with the kanji it might make sense to post the kanji -_-
anyway tengoku is heaven (heaven+land) right? ten = sky/heaven, anyway i have no idea of the meaning of hokoten
_________________

�@
�Y�����s������

supermidget wrote:

i have no idea of the meaning of hokoten

Sometimes I can kind of get an idea of an unknown word by typing it into google.co.jp and seeing what comes up. I'm really a duffer at Nihongo and just do it to play around, but maybe you smart people who can read Kanji could try it and see what comes up?

Just a thought.

(edit: I tried this with the hiragana �ق��Ă�, and I kind of get the impression the word is related to ���s�ғV�� = pedestrian mall? I also saw the combination hokoten matsuri a couple times, and ����̂ق��Ă�)

oohhh thankkss...hahaha that was some good revision... i have a major japanese exam coming up....haha...there's a listening component...somehow i can understand bits and pieces when i'm not paying that much attention..as in like watching japanese dramas/anime...but when i concentrate during the listening exam...i NEVER get to understand..lol~~ maybe next time i shouldn't concentrate so much...

mainichi gohan wo tabesaseraretakunakereba...nihon ni iku beki janai..haa...that was really long..

yanjun wrote:

oohhh thankkss...hahaha that was some good revision... i have a major japanese exam coming up....haha...there's a listening component...somehow i can understand bits and pieces when i'm not paying that much attention..as in like watching japanese dramas/anime...but when i concentrate during the listening exam...i NEVER get to understand..lol~~ maybe next time i shouldn't concentrate so much... mainichi gohan wo tabesaseraretakunakereba...nihon ni iku beki janai..haa...that was really long..

Two points here.

There is a difference between �ԈႤ(machigau) and �ԈႦ��(machigaeru).

The verb �ԈႤ is used when something is wrong.

Examples:
�莆�̂��Đ悪�Ԉ���Ă��܂����B(tegami no atesaki ga machigatteimashita)
"The address on the letter was wrong."

BUT

���͎莆�̂��Đ���ԈႦ�܂����B(watashi no atesaki wo machigaemashita.)
"I made a mistake on the address on the letter (ie: the letter's address)."

So, here is the basic rule:

SOMETHING �� �Ԉ���Ă���B
or
SUBJECT �� SOMETHING �� �ԈႦ��B

You will rarely hear �ԈႢ�܂���(machigaimashita). The more common form is either �Ԉ���Ă���(machigatteiru = present tense, but not necessarily present progressive tense) or �Ԉ���Ă���(machigatteita = past tense, but not necessarily past progressive tense).

�ԈႤ can also be used to imply that you think someone or someone's way of thinking isn't right (in a moral, legal, etc. sense).

�ނ̎q��Ă͊Ԉ���Ă���B(Kare no kosodate ha machigatteiru.)

Lit. 'His child-raising is wrong.' = "I don't agree with the way he raises his children."


Okay, that was longer than I expected to write

And finally, about �ق��V, I've searched on the net, and there is a place in ���h(harajuku) called �ق��V.
It's more than likely a shortened form of something else, and I'm guessing it's ���s�ғV��, as mentioned above. I've been to ���h but not to �ق��V, so I could be wrong.

Anyway, off to the night market downtown

������
_________________

"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams

yanjun wrote:

oohhh thankkss...hahaha that was some good revision... i have a major japanese exam coming up....haha...there's a listening component...somehow i can understand bits and pieces when i'm not paying that much attention..as in like watching japanese dramas/anime...but when i concentrate during the listening exam...i NEVER get to understand..lol~~ maybe next time i shouldn't concentrate so much... mainichi gohan wo tabesaseraretakunakereba...nihon ni iku beki janai..haa...that was really long..

lol but during your examn you will have to understand most of it, instead of picking up a few words, I guess that's the difference
_________________

�@
�Y�����s������

kokuou wrote:

Two points here. There is a difference between �ԈႤ(machigau) and �ԈႦ��(machigaeru).

thanks for explaining does it mean you can't say "machigaimashita" meaning "i made a mistake"? or would you say "machigaemashita" (or with -te form). I mean in cases where u don't need to say what exactly you did wrong. hmm i guess if you did *something* wrong, it would always need a transitive verb right? -_- funny how one convince oneself of something different and then get confused
_________________

�@
�Y�����s������