Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 406 Location: ������ Country:
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:49 am Post subject:
ribi wrote:
Hi, I have 2 questions.
I am currently moving on to learning about conjugation of verbs in the plain form, e.g. taberu/tabenai/tabemasu, matsu/machimasu/matanai etc.
My question is: When do I know to use taberu �H�ׂ� instead of tabemasu �H�ׂ܂�? My Japanese book says they mean the same, i.e. present affirmative of the verb "to eat" but does not tell me which is more appropriate in what instances.
Oh, another question is, do I have to memorise ALL the dictionary/root forms of verbs or is there a way to know it by looking at the conjugated verb?
Thanks!
Well, ofcourse, to remember a verb, you'll have to remember some kind of form of the verb. The most practical and common way is to remember the rentaikei/shuushikei form (like taberu). I'm not sure wether you're taking Japanese as a class, or wether you're doing selfstudying. In the first case, I would say -> you'll learn about your question the next lesson. In the other case, i'll explain:
The conjugation of verbs is very regular. Like the base used for -masu is always ending on an i-collumn syllable (i, ki, shi, chi). Also the base used for negatives (with -nai) are regular. It always ends on an a-collumn syllable (a, ka, sa, ta). It's usefull to learn the names of the different 'bases' and there ending syllable. I listed them shortly for you, with examples of connecting auxiliary verbs.
The only point when the different endings of verbs are becoming important is when using the "-ta" forms and others. Here, contractions will occur which make it different.
-TA:
You would expect to stick -ta behind the renyoukei like you would do with -masu:
machi (renyoukei of matsu) + masu = machimasu
so
machi + ta = machita
Wrong! 'machita' will change in to 'matta'. These kind of contractions are different for some types of verbs (determined by there ending syllable). The catagorization is like this:
Ending on TSU, RU, U
matsu, wakaru, kau (to wait, to understand, to buy)
machi + ta -> matta
wakari + ta -> wakatta
kai + ta -> katta
Ending on BU, MU, NU
yobu, yomu, shinu (to call, to read, to die)
yobi + ta -> yonda
yomi + ta -> yonda
shinu + ta -> shinda
Ending on GU
oyogu (toswim)
oyogi + ta -> oyoida
Ending on KU
haku (to puke)
haki + ta -> haita
Ending on SU
mousu (to say)
moushi + ta -> moushita (NO contraction!)
These contractions occur when using "-te" "-ta" "-tari" "-tara".
*Group 2 (only two forms)*
There are a few words that don't follow the rules of the conjugation. They will stay the same in all forms, remaining only their stem. Only verbs ending on -ERU or -IRU can belong to this group.
(to eat)
rentaikei: taberu
(shuushikei: taberu ? not sure actually)
renyoukei: tabe -masu -ta -te (polite, past, continues)
mizenkei: tabe -nai, rareru, saseru (negative, passive, causative)
izenkei: tabe -reba (conditional)
meireikei: tabe -yo -ro (imperative)
(to see)
rentaikei: miru
(shuushikei: miru ? not sure actually)
renyoukei: mi -masu -ta -te (polite, past, continues)
mizenkei: mi -nai, rareru, saseru (negative, passive, causative)
izenkei: mi -reba (conditional)
meireikei: mi -yo -ro (imperative)
It doesn't mean all verbs ending on -IRU or -ERU belong to this 'exceptional' group. For example the word "kiru" (to cut) ends on -IRU but it's -masu form is "kirimasu" like regular words ending on -RU. There's also another word "kiru" which means 'to put on' (like clothes). This verb belongs to the 2nd group (-IRU) so it's -masu form is "kimasu"). Sorry if this made it more confusing.
If you see a verb for the first time, and it ends on IRU or ERU, you can't tell wether it's part of group 4 or group2. You will have to know the -masu form, or any other form that will give you a clue as to which group it belongs.
That's all I can tell about conjugation in one hour -_- i hope you are able to read / understand some of what i tried to explain. Good luck! _________________
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 506 Location: Canada Country:
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:05 am Post subject:
kurokage wrote:
hello, Ribi!
well i think "taberu" and "tabemasu" mean the same, but "tabemasu" is just more polite than "Taberu". you might need to use "Tabemasu" to speak with your teacher or anyone who is older than you. "Taberu" is usually used when a person is talking to a friend.
for me personally, i just memorise the dictionary form...
correct me if i'm wrong, 'coz i'm still learning too.. just thought maybe i can help
Yup
'Taberu' and 'tabemasu' differ only in the fact that the former is less polite than the latter. You would say, just as kurokage (THX ) said above, 'tabemasu' to people that you don't know that well or above you (although, if you are receiving food from them, you would use 'itadakimasu'), and you can use 'taberu' with your friends.
As for the verbs, there are linguistic rules that go into syllables and morae and the like, but unless you are familiar with such words (believe me, it takes a really special person to get excited about such things), it's probably best to stick to the rules your textbooks tell you.
There are some patterns, however, that can make your life easier:
�`�� verbs:
�Y���i�����悤�j - to be adrift, to wander aimlessly
---------------------------
�Y���܂�
-- ���܂���
-- ����
-- ����
-- ������
-- ��Ȃ�
-- ���܂���
�`�� verbs:
�����i�݂����j - to polish, to brush
---------------------------
�����܂�
-- ���܂���
-- ����
-- ����
-- ������
-- ���Ȃ�
-- ���܂���
That should be them all.
There are really no exceptions (except for ����(kuru) and ����(suru)).
The only really difficult thing is remembering which �`�� verbs take which pattern. As you see above, you can't really tell by any one particular thing, because you can have two verbs that are pronounced exactly the same in their dictionary form (�� and �A��), but they take different patterns. I can't even think of which pattern is used more; they seem to have the same rate of occurance, offhand.
Anyway, hopefully that helps someone out
HTH,
������ _________________
"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 406 Location: ������ Country:
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:08 am Post subject:
So, to answer your question actually... Sometimes you can tell the root verb by looking at a conjugated form.
For example:
1: "tetsudaimasu" (I'll help)
the base is "tetsudai-". So just think which ending syllable would change into "i" when rendering to renyoukei. Correct, the 'u'. So the root verb is:
tetsudau.
2: "kimenai" (I won't decide)
the base is "kime-". Since the ending is '-nai', usually the base would end in -a. But it doesn't, so it must belong to Group 2. Which means 'kime' is the stem, and only the RU was missing:
kimeru
Due to the contractions in the "-ta" "-te" and other forms, it's sometimes impossible to tell the root verb:
3: "yonda"
This is the "-ta" form of a verb. There's a few endings that change to "-nda". Like verbs on "mu, nu, bu". So this verb could either be:
yomu (to read)
yonu
yobu (to call)
There's actually no word "yonu". To be honest, there's only 1 verb ending on 'nu' (shinu, to die).
Question, i am reading a learn japanese site where someone commented on a lesson:
�t���C�_�͂��ނ��Ȃ��ł�
The katakana i read as Floyd,
Floyd o samukunai desu. For the life of me, i couldn't figure out what it means. I tried diff combination in dictionary, and don't know what samu, samuku or samkunai is....
Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 3392 Location: peoples democratic republic of yorkshire Country:
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:19 am Post subject:
fayewolf wrote:
Question, i am reading a learn japanese site where someone commented on a lesson:
�t���C�_�͂��ނ��Ȃ��ł�
The katakana i read as Floyd,
Floyd o samukunai desu. For the life of me, i couldn't figure out what it means. I tried diff combination in dictionary, and don't know what samu, samuku or samkunai is....
Thanks!
samukunai is a form of samui meaning cold. samukunai means not cold.
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 506 Location: Canada Country:
Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:48 pm Post subject:
fayewolf wrote:
Hmm.. what does it mean when he commented that the lesson is not cold??
Anyways, how would you know to look up samukai as samui in the dictionary as opposed to other combinations?? I'm about to pull al my hair out!!!
Thanks though!
Adjectives, adverbs, and nouns in a dictionary are listed in their neutral forms (or infinitive for verbs), regardless of the language.
Just like you wouldn't find a world like "shouldn't" in an English dictionary, you won't find the negated form 'samukunai' derived from 'samui'.
With the above English example, the dictionary assumes that you have enough basic knowledge to parse the word as a combination of "should" and "not" in English, and then look up each word.
Similarly, a Japanese dictionary is not going to take the time to list every word in every possible conjugated form. It's going to expect you to know that 'samukunai' is actually a combination of 'samui' and '-nai'.
Do you realize how big the dictionary would be if it listed every possible combination?
If you're pulling your hair out at such an early stage, what is it going to be like when you start to learn passives, causatives, and combinations of the two?
As a rule for adjectives, when you see '-kunai', replace it with '-i' and you should have the dictionary form.
HTH,
������ _________________
"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams
Joined: 13 Oct 2004 Posts: 8550 Location: California Country:
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:29 am Post subject:
kenjilina wrote:
i just thought it should be furorida as opposed to furoida.
I hear ya. If only we had the ability to change the katakana for some words...
Kenjilina: I looked up the katakana for Florida. It is fu-ro-ri-da. I wonder if that person wrote it incorrectly. Florida does make sense in that sense.
Joined: 28 Jun 2005 Posts: 3392 Location: peoples democratic republic of yorkshire Country:
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:19 am Post subject:
dochira wrote:
I hear ya. If only we had the ability to change the katakana for some words...
Kenjilina: I looked up the katakana for Florida. It is fu-ro-ri-da. I wonder if that person wrote it incorrectly. Florida does make sense in that sense.
"Florida is not cold."
yep, i agree. if only people were as perfect as us! (i am joking if anyone else is reading this).
This is what i'm trying to understand.... I firgured it's
Mom's cooking is not that great.
Now, I can get the mother part, and ���� part. ����I figured is unskillful, but�@�����@I'm really scratching my head. I tried looking up in dictionary and I can't find it....���@appears all over the place at the end of sentence... can someone explain to me what that is? Thanks!
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 506 Location: Canada Country:
Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject:
fayewolf wrote:
���ꂳ��͂������������肽����
This is what i'm trying to understand.... I firgured it's
Mom's cooking is not that great.
Now, I can get the mother part, and ���� part. ����I figured is unskillful, but�@�����@I'm really scratching my head. I tried looking up in dictionary and I can't find it....���@appears all over the place at the end of sentence... can someone explain to me what that is? Thanks!
Probably a typo for:
���ꂳ��͂������������肾�����B
"My mom's cooking was really bad."
������ is past tense for �� (familiar form of �ł�), and the �� is a short form of �̂�. Doesn't really have a meaning (technically it nominalizes it, but we don't need to be that technical ), just kind of makes it more colloquial.
HTH,
������ _________________
"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams
Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 406 Location: ������ Country:
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:50 am Post subject:
fayewolf wrote:
���ꂳ��͂������������肽����
This is what i'm trying to understand.... I firgured it's
Mom's cooking is not that great.
Now, I can get the mother part, and ���� part. ����I figured is unskillful, but�@�����@I'm really scratching my head. I tried looking up in dictionary and I can't find it....���@appears all over the place at the end of sentence... can someone explain to me what that is? Thanks!
Try learning some grammar before attempting to translate everything by dictionary. The dictionary only becomes usefull when you know grammar. _________________
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 506 Location: Canada Country:
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:11 pm Post subject:
mcgills wrote:
how can I say it to Japanese?:
Anna please forgive me.
in this format
English letter:Anna, please forgive me.
Japlish:__________________
Japanese letter:_______________
English:
Anna, please forgive me.
Transliteration:
Anna, watashi wo yurushite (kudasai).
Japanese:
�A���i�A���������āi���������j�B
The last part is in brackets because it depends on your context whether it is necessary or not. If the person asking to be forgiven is friends or knows Anna fairly well, it's not required. Otherwise, it's good to add it.
-----
When you use English (or Roman) script to write sound approximations, it's called "transliteration."
Just a hint for the future as Japlish sounds a little too close to one particular word (which I won't write here) for my ears.
HTH,
������ _________________
"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams
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to get excited about such things), it's probably best to stick to the rules your textbooks tell you.
(i am joking if anyone else is reading this). 
plss help me
