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FierceStriker



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:07 am    Post subject: Saving the Soul of the Soul-less Reply with quote Back to top

Since the argument on religion seems to be quite popular in anime, dorama, even games. I'd like to start a thread and see what people's opions are. (It is opinions only, not meant to offend anyone personally, please keep that in mind).

Here are my thoughts, doozo yoroshiku:

Religion is not a coalition of beliefs, nor does it obey the will of God; Religion is an ultimate form of control, based on fear. One may say that religion is the same thing as political parties (such as communism), they aim to create one force under which mindless commoners will follow.

What do people fear the most? The devil or utter darkness? Is it not scarier if one does not know what is out there? Why do we fear aliens? Because we do not know what they are, where they are, who they are, what they do, and most importantly, what they will do to us.

The image of God, the one savior, is what keeps humans sane, what keeps humans from losing their mind in the fear of unknown. He/she is the GOOD. Meanwhile, the very idea of the Devil, the EVIL, is also created so that people can have a finite definition of their fear, which again lessens it. In other words, they serve the same purposes, to alleviate our fear.

I do not doubt the fact that something(s) with unexplainable power exist out there, yet I certainly do not believe in the fabrications humans created to manipulate themselves. If one is truly faithful to whatever he believes in, then pray with his heart, be truthful, honest to himself. Isn't it better than pretending to care about god while asking for selfish needs?

Religion should be a philosophy, not an iron book of rules. People should learn it, not fear it. Ironically, those "true" followers have no soul to be saved.
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bmwracer



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'm agnostic.
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IkematsuSosuke



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I think people do it because it gives them hope..when they're down they pray..hoping for something good.
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FierceStriker



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, I agree with the "hope" concept. What I am against is people using religion as a weapon and excuse to hurt somebody else. Look at all those "holy" wars. Of course, I am talking more about Western and Middle Eastern Religions. Buddhism seems to be the best as it preaches philosophy to life, not as a book of iron rules.
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IkematsuSosuke



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

yeah..in history class i learned how ppl used religion to fight..its sad.
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GhstDreamer



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

FierceStriker wrote:
Since the argument on religion seems to be quite popular in anime, dorama, even games. I'd like to start a thread and see what people's opions are. (It is opinions only, not meant to offend anyone personally, please keep that in mind).

Here are my thoughts, doozo yoroshiku:

Religion is not a coalition of beliefs, nor does it obey the will of God; Religion is an ultimate form of control, based on fear. One may say that religion is the same thing as political parties (such as communism), they aim to create one force under which mindless commoners will follow.

What do people fear the most? The devil or utter darkness? Is it not scarier if one does not know what is out there? Why do we fear aliens? Because we do not know what they are, where they are, who they are, what they do, and most importantly, what they will do to us.

The image of God, the one savior, is what keeps humans sane, what keeps humans from losing their mind in the fear of unknown. He/she is the GOOD. Meanwhile, the very idea of the Devil, the EVIL, is also created so that people can have a finite definition of their fear, which again lessens it. In other words, they serve the same purposes, to alleviate our fear.

I do not doubt the fact that something(s) with unexplainable power exist out there, yet I certainly do not believe in the fabrications humans created to manipulate themselves. If one is truly faithful to whatever he believes in, then pray with his heart, be truthful, honest to himself. Isn't it better than pretending to care about god while asking for selfish needs?

Religion should be a philosophy, not an iron book of rules. People should learn it, not fear it. Ironically, those "true" followers have no soul to be saved.


The thing is Religion is not Philosophy - otherwise there wouldn't be an academic area called The Philosophy of Religion. Philosophy means the love and pursuit of knowledge. Religion is based upon faith and belief regardless of whether you are a Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, etc. You believe in God, Allah, or even in Zen Buddhism you believe that there does exist a world of no forms - without need to question such existance. Once you start questioning the existance of God, Allah, etc. then you start talking about philosophy - it's the need to prove something. That's what the medieval philosophers were trying to deal with during the middle ages. Like how can humans understand the will of God when we are so limited in only talking about God in words and expressions that are spatially and temporally bounded? All we know is that God exists beyond space and time but whether God is benevolent or an all-good God is something we have to have faith in. Everything else that we know is based on human texts and we know humans are fallible.

In many ways, I also believe that it is the inherent and subconcious fear of death that drives all people - whether it is towards a set of beliefs, financial or personal success, etc. Isn't the need to start a family also born out of a fear of death? Humans are the only animals that are conscious of the past, present and future - and the future is death, the unknown. It's just something we don't go around thinking about it everyday - because if we do, we become paralyze in our fear.

I think what you may have trouble separating is religion and religious institutions. They are not the same thing. You can have a religion without a religious institution but not the other way around. Yes, there are corrupt religious people and there are corrupt religious institutions but that does not mean that religion itself is corrupt.

I know this a long post and most of what I understand is from my classes (besides my business degree; I also ended up with philosophy degree - it's a weird double major). Since I'm basically a fence sitter. I want to believe there is a God but the horrible scientific and philosophical side of me tells me not to. Of course there are those who say that science has become the new dogma.

This is just my opinion and in no way can be meant to be taken as knowledge Bleah I also hope that people aren't offended only cuz anything about religion can become pretty heated....that and politics hehe
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FierceStriker



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

GhstDreamer, I respect your opinon. I am a Fence-sitter too, Big Grin. I have a business, english, and acting, triple major degree, hehe, and am a part-time philosopher, published poet, was a former pro fencer in europe, and work under the fashion glam lights. Talk about a weird mix here, right?

Actually I believe in the existence of higher beings as well, but I think praying and all these faithful elements should come straight from one's heart to its believed receiver - whatever is most comfortable; whatever feels most effective. It has to be sincere, but it does not need to follow rigurous rules of a Religion institution. That's what I meant.

I don't know if anyone here watches Family Guy, Peter Griffin, the main character once said after drinking the holy blood of jesus "damn, that guy must be drunk 24 hrs a day," hehe
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lovelessemotion



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

FierceStriker wrote:

I don't know if anyone here watches Family Guy, Peter Griffin, the main character once said after drinking the holy blood of jesus "damn, that guy must be drunk 24 hrs a day," hehe
hehe yeah i remember that!...
anyway... i dun really think about religion nor math very often .. but i know this:
When I do good, I feel good.
When I do bad, I feel bad.
and that's my religion! XD
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The Man



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:47 am    Post subject: l'relgione Reply with quote Back to top

I gotta disagree immensely with comparing the idea of religion to, as has been previously mentioned, political parties. I mean, if for no other good reason, ALL East Germans understood the the failings of institutionalized communism as quickly, ironically enough, as fast as the Berlin Wall came down in 1989; and tell me North Koreans wouldn't be up in arms, oh, say, if the entire "Kim Jong Il" bloodline were to somehow become eradicated.

I don't like the idea that folks take to a religion out of "fear." If THAT's going to be stated, well, you may as well say a majority of Roman Catholics would leave their religion out of disgust due to a legion (pardon the pun) of recent molestation charges against priests. This exodus (pardon THAT pun, too) hasn't happened yet; and you can bet it won't happen.

"Religion" or "religious institutions." Doesn't matter. There is corruption in EVERYTHING. And like GhstDreamer says above, "humans are fallible."

The thing about a thread like this one (and, I'm not complaining, if you're wondering) is that it can go on and on and on and on ad infinitum with very little agreement.

But I think the one thing we can agree upon is that, realistically speaking, there are, on this planet Earth, myriads of faith, religion, and/or whatever other processes, contemplations, mediations, et al., that make you feel like you're more than organs, skin, and bone; and, above all, people who choose to believe them (I just saw A Mighty Wind, on HBO, which is a movie/comedy that features a couple whose sole faith lies in the phenomenon of color). The key word is "choose"; indeed, there are some that choose not to believe in a higher power at all.

Maybe all of this is easy for me to say as a U.S. citizen. But I won't apologize for that, either.

My name is The Man. And I am a proud, steadfast Roman Catholic.
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FierceStriker



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

lovelessemotion wrote:
hehe yeah i remember that!...
anyway... i dun really think about religion nor math very often .. but i know this:
When I do good, I feel good.
When I do bad, I feel bad.
and that's my religion! XD


Exactly
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thetenken



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

"Stood in firelight, sweltering. Bloodstain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever, and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves; go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank world. Was Rorschach." - Rorschach, Watchmen

"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." - Carl Jung, Memories, Dreams, Reflections

Discussions such as these aren't really discussions, but chest-beating exercises. I say what I believe, you say what you believe, nothing really gets discussed, and no one really returns to the thread. I do disagree about the 'difference' between philosophy and religion. Philosophy oft leads to religion, and vice versa. For some Christians, the philosophy esposed by Jesus Christ became their religion of Christianity. For some born-again Christians, they thought they were blinded by the religion and instead later embraced the philosophy.
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FierceStriker



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

What you pointed out is actually the problem of Philosophy in general - everyone has a different opinion and nobody ever agrees on anything.

The purpose of this thread IS to see the diverse opinions people have about religion; no conformity or specific answer is seeked here.

After all, humans are all blindfolded primates trapped on the island of ignorence; their only link is to each other.

If you are quoting, don't forget "the Allegory of the Cave" -- one of the key ancestors of philosophical pondering.

We, as humans, can either choose to stay happily and naiively in our own fabricated sanctuary or we can step out into the world of the unknown and learn about it. There is no wrong choice, it all depends on the oneself and his/her goal in life (if any).
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thetenken



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

FierceStriker wrote:
What you pointed out is actually the problem of Philosophy in general - everyone has a different opinion and nobody ever agrees on anything.

The purpose of this thread IS to see the diverse opinions people have about religion; no conformity or specific answer is seeked here.

After all, humans are all blindfolded primates trapped on the island of ignorence; their only link is to each other.

If you are quoting, don't forget "the Allegory of the Cave" -- one of the key ancestors of philosophical pondering.

We, as humans, can either choose to stay happily and naiively in our own fabricated sanctuary or we can step out into the world of the unknown and learn about it. There is no wrong choice, it all depends on the oneself and his/her goal in life (if any).


My point exactly. Most of these threads are exactly like the allegory of the cave. One can take a pessimistic view and say that we're all trapped within the same cave of the world, and that all we see are the shadows or the outlines of things shown to us by God or by whoever, and due to our limited scope (due to technology, belief, or whatnot) we are unable to do more than talk with out prisoners in the cave, who may have different viewpoints and interpretations all based upon the same shadows.

As you say about the primates on the island of ignorance, so we are prisoners of a cave with no escape. All philosophy is arguing about forms. Same can be said about religion. There are no real choices, just the illusion of choice. Well, that's if you're a pessimist. =)
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The Man



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Funny. Hmmmm . . . I thought Platonic thought was the scourge of revisionist thinking; Plato is, after all, considered part of Western thought (or did THAT change during these culture wars that make the Clone Wars look like a day at the beach? Well, no . . . I don't think it's changed).
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thetenken



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

The Man wrote:
Funny. Hmmmm . . . I thought Platonic thought was the scourge of revisionist thinking; Plato is, after all, considered part of Western thought (or did THAT change during these culture wars that make the Clone Wars look like a day at the beach? Well, no . . . I don't think it's changed).


Nah, Plato saw things a little more black and white. He was the disciple of Socrates, who rejected the Sophists. He conceived of the allegory of the cave to teach the theory of forms. Plato never had to contend with the revisionist, modernist, cubist, post-modernist etc. thinking that occurred in the 20th century. I just perverted the allegory of the cave to my own purposes.

The theory of forms only works if you believe there are absolutes, that there is a particularly correct form that dominates all others (one over many). If you think in a relativist way, then we are once again on the slippery slope...
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The Man



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

thetenken wrote:


Nah, Plato saw things a little more black and white. He was the disciple of Socrates, who rejected the Sophists. He conceived of the allegory of the cave to teach the theory of forms. Plato never had to contend with the revisionist, modernist, cubist, post-modernist etc. thinking that occurred in the 20th century. I just perverted the allegory of the cave to my own purposes.

The theory of forms only works if you believe there are absolutes, that there is a particularly correct form that dominates all others (one over many). If you think in a relativist way, then we are once again on the slippery slope...


Ha. I think, I should mention that I was trying to be kinda' sarcastic. I mean, I must've heard or read at least some semblance of reference to Platonic thought from the same multi-culturalists who tend to lay blame on "dead white men" (which Plato can't POSSIBLY be, right?).

Actually . . . what the heck am I saying? I DO have a multi-cultural text that I just adore -- and it's called the Bible. Applaud

But, yeah, I think I found out something else we can agree on: this thread can go on and on and on . . .
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thetenken



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

The Man wrote:


Ha. I think, I should mention that I was trying to be kinda' sarcastic. I mean, I must've heard or read at least some semblance of reference from the same multi-culturalists who tend to lay blame on "dead white men" (which Plato can't POSSIBLY be, right?).

Actually . . . what the heck am I saying? I DO have a multi-cultural text that I just adore -- and it's called the Bible. Applaud

But, yeah, I think I found out something else we can agree on: this thread can go on and on and on . . .


Indeed...
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ahochaude



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Man, I have no idea about this religion stuffs!

I have to say that all my life, I was brought up into Christianity, but now, I don't really know what or where I stand.

I have no idea about a God and whatnot. Scientists theories prove otherwise.
I think Buddhism (sorry-spelling, not "all there" tonite), suits me best.

I have a hard time believing in something that can't be proven to have existed that's why. Buddha existed, as for God, it's contraversal.

Just my thoughts on all this stuff.
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Akakage



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

wooow..what a deep thread! Basically to be soulful in this souless life it's not from what've read from a book (IMO) but from the life that you lead. If you're a good person leading a happy average life than it'd probably be simple. Human got desire which leads to ambition and suffering. We actually torture ourselves which actually originated from within our innerself. Phew.. Sweat I'm no good philosopher nor the reader of the great authors who opine many greatness of words in life. To me, what I've always kept from myself is to be a good person. No matter what religion you are devoted, devil within you can be very dangerous. Human mind can interpret whatever comes.

Phew..conclusion for myself..I'm just going to be a good person in this life, I believe in karma, don't want to be born as Roddent in my next life.. Sweat pfft..I believe in God meaning there's a Supreme power in this world which is unexplainable. I don't want to destroy my nature..I love earth (save the earth). Religion will do good for those who are devoted to doing good in this world. AMEN..
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The Man



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:06 am    Post subject: Evil. Reply with quote Back to top

Akakage wrote:


"I'm just going to be a good person in this life" and "Religion will do good for those who are devoted to doing good in this world."


See, though . . . I can't help but look at the news and assess what's going on in the world as how there are, of recent, groups (we know who they are) that think slamming planes into buildings and blowing up trains are doing "good" for what they believe in.

I think that kind of activity finds its way into categorizing itself as "unGodly." It's certainly evil as well.
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