Well, there are some rocks somewhere in the sea between Japan and South Korea which are claimed by both. I saw an image of those... It's ridiculous from both countries. Those "islands" are really nothing else but rocks, you can't even build a weather station on those.

The world is still such a primitive place still, isnt it?

Still no other century has seem the steps towards more humane treatment of others than this one.

Resolution of this situation seems difficult with so many prides and faces at stake.
Backing down is tough in any culture but the Japanese even more so.

Its so sad how past baggage is inevitably dragged along or brought up again for political expediency, and innocents hurt and betrayed.

_________________

Situation doesn't seem to be getting any better now.. already showing signs of some action against the Chinese consulate in Tokyo. Wonder what'll happen if they adopt tit for tat in Japan.

What does China want Japan to do now? Felt it might have been ok if this matter was brought up peacefully, Japan would have not as much problems owning up to this and apologizing.

Now with the violence and hoo ha created, it'll be difficult for Japan to even apologize before China would own up for their own wrongs in the violence.

Pride..

How do you think this situation would be solved now? What can both parties do?
_________________

Pride's the issue, they both have to drop it to go forward. Also, I think it would help if the PRC government opened up a bit, or changed hands altogether. Autocratic governments tend to be hard to deal with because they always have to satisfy their own legitimacy when their power doesn't come from the people.
_________________

redsun wrote:

people are hypocrites and two-faced. oh! you say how much you love japanese dramas, japanese music, japanese food, japanese cellphones, japanese electronics, japanese karaoke, japanese this and japanese that, japanese everything. but then when it comes to the affairs between the countries of Japan and China you go balisstics and talk all high and mighty. acting like you know a whole lot of shit when you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. did you fucking experience those situations? did you get interrogated and abused by the japanese? if you have no such experiences then don't go and talk like you know every fucking damn thing about world war II because you know nada, zippola, zilch! you don't have the guts to go into the public in front of chinese people and say that you like going to japan, you love watching japanese animations, japanese dramas, you love japanese food, you love japanese people, etc. such hypocrites and two-facers! well then you might as well go on living a fucking double life. how in the fuck are you going to calculate every fucking thing in this world. you know shit. im mixed - chinese, korean and japanese. so what's up with that? am i suppose to hate the chinese side or hate the japanese side? or just hate the korean side? people who hate for no reason and who never gone through anything, know shit, all you know is horse shit! go and eat 6-feet of dirt! goddammit!

i'm a malay... can i ask somethin'???... should the mods lock this f**kin' topic???...

kitakaze wrote:

Pride's the issue, they both have to drop it to go forward. Also, I think it would help if the PRC government opened up a bit, or changed hands altogether. Autocratic governments tend to be hard to deal with because they always have to satisfy their own legitimacy when their power doesn't come from the people.

I agree, and if you take all of Japan's history then it's not much of a surprise that they have some problems with apologizing. I'm somewhat sure that, if my country would have never been invaded and if we'd have just lost one war in our entire history, I'd have my problems with that too. And look at Japan's history. Never invaded; only lost against the Americans; they never ended like China did with the Europeans, instead they successfully kept them pretty much out of the country under the Tokugawa... It all adds together.

I think I can understand the Japanese position.

*rambles & rants*

now almost every forum i go has such topics..
i mean.. it's really makin' me sick..
just face up 2 the history n let bygones be bygones 4 god's sake..
_________________

china's being kinda hypocritical arent they....china is the master at cover-ups and being secretive...they can torture & brainwash their own ppl but gee golly forbid if someone else tries to cover up something that happened 50 years ago.
japan prolly shouldnt have tried that anyway, history can never be changed, but then again it's not like we *learn* from our mistakes.
if u didnt already notice..i am Taiwanese, yes TAIWANese. I really can't take the way china always brainwashes everyone and treats them like toys to play with
im not completely on japans side either cuz they did some pretty horrible stuff to the taiwanese as well, but at least theyre trying to make up for it now instead of threatning us with missiles like china is
...anyways..i'll stop ranting >.>

This is a little off topic but it's kinda related in a way to current events:

I saw an episode of Dateline NBC regarding errors in textbooks.
When Dateline tried to call the publishers back about these errors, most
of the time the response would be "no comment."

Here are some unbelievable history ones that were quite hilarious:

-"The Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Germany."
-Some texts make no mention of the holocaust or the 6 million jews that perished - as if it never happened.
-"Two atomic bombs were dropped on Nagasaki."
-"Sun Yat Sen was the leader of the Communist Party."
-"The Axis of Evil consisted of Russia, Germany, and Italy in WWII."
-"Napolean won the Battle at Waterloo."

heavensdrive wrote:

-"The Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Germany." -Some texts make no mention of the holocaust or the 6 million jews that perished - as if it never happened. -"Two atomic bombs were dropped on Nagasaki." -"Sun Yat Sen was the leader of the Communist Party." -"The Axis of Evil consisted of Russia, Germany, and Italy in WWII." -"Napolean won the Battle at Waterloo."

rofl

Those are just textbooks though, imagine things like that on TV. Just yesterday some program on German TV ranted about an air raid on Munich during WW2. And the Americans reportedly flew with "B-17 Lancesters".

They even called a MiG 21 "Starfighter" once, like those two look even 1% the same.

Or just read a newspaper like the German "Bild"... owwww...

Heck, ask people on the streets and you'll get the strangest replies.


I actually don't envy the Japanese PM, I mean, he's stuck. He can't say "No we won't apologize" and he can't say "We are sorry" either. Whatever he does it'll piss off some people.

Maybe the emperor should do something. Of course he holds no real power, but he's still a symbol. And even the extreme right wingers somewhat respect him. Then again, I don't think that emperor Akihito will do something. Maybe his son Naruhito will, after all he has already broken with a few old things (like standing up for his wife *GASP* I remember the shock it caused when he did that).

And if he doesn't, well... then there's always a future empress Aiko.

kurayzee wrote:

china's being kinda hypocritical arent they....china is the master at cover-ups and being secretive...they can torture & brainwash their own ppl but gee golly forbid if someone else tries to cover up something that happened 50 years ago. japan prolly shouldnt have tried that anyway, history can never be changed, but then again it's not like we *learn* from our mistakes. if u didnt already notice..i am Taiwanese, yes TAIWANese. I really can't take the way china always brainwashes everyone and treats them like toys to play with im not completely on japans side either cuz they did some pretty horrible stuff to the taiwanese as well, but at least theyre trying to make up for it now instead of threatning us with missiles like china is ...anyways..i'll stop ranting >.>

FYI...every country is hypocritical...even Taiwan and (OMG! BIG SURPRISE!) the USA is too. Everyone here should just calm down, then they would see that both sides have committed atrocities in the past and the present; both parties should just settle down and solve the problem like real people should, through negotiations.

FusilliBernie wrote:

both parties should just settle down and solve the problem like real people should, through negotiations.

Agreed. That's what they should do, although they haven't..... yet (hopefully).
_________________

heavensdrive wrote:

This is a little off topic but it's kinda related in a way to current events: I saw an episode of Dateline NBC regarding errors in textbooks. When Dateline tried to call the publishers back about these errors, most of the time the response would be "no comment." Here are some unbelievable history ones that were quite hilarious: -"The Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Germany." -"Two atomic bombs were dropped on Nagasaki." -"Napolean won the Battle at Waterloo."

Doing my John Belushi impression...

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!



With liberty and fraternity for all,
PCM

Lets redirect this discussion to how you think this issue could or would resolve in the end. We've already dug deep into the history books and know that both parties have erred.

Have they reached stalemate? I don't really see a good possible move by both parties. China hasn't given Japan a realistic chance to make up for it..

Perhaps the best scenario would be for Japan to apologize for the textbook and wartime issues, then ask China for compensation for the damages caused. I think they rightfully can ask for that at least...

For China, don't see any possibility of them taking the first step backwards..
_________________

In all honesty, I see neither of that happening. I see their relations continue in this precarious condition. Even if they kiss and make up for this situation, should China try to stall Japan's entry into the UNSC, this may start up once again.

Genma wrote:

Situation doesn't seem to be getting any better now.. already showing signs of some action against the Chinese consulate in Tokyo. Wonder what'll happen if they adopt tit for tat in Japan. What does China want Japan to do now? Felt it might have been ok if this matter was brought up peacefully, Japan would have not as much problems owning up to this and apologizing. Now with the violence and hoo ha created, it'll be difficult for Japan to even apologize before China would own up for their own wrongs in the violence. Pride.. How do you think this situation would be solved now? What can both parties do?

Ah, man. Now, I gotta respond to something that THE administrator on this board said; nice knowing you folks .

You know . . . Japan's realistic chance to make amends has been every decade since their surrender. It's not so much that they're being coerced because it doesn't seem the case that Japan ever needed permission to apologize.

And can Japan afford to go "tit for tat" with China? Do they really wanna go down that road? Say what you want about "the party" currently imbuing their younger set about Imperial Japan, but, they seem to be doing a good job of not allowing the atrocities to die out with the old.

I just have this feeling that both will be done: 1) a very publicized apology from Japan for World War II will be made, which will include sobering lessons regarding WWII topics such as The Rape of Nanking; that'll come first as a way to vascillate 2) China's advantage toward acquiring them rocks between them, drilling rights, whatever, done as a compromise for a seat for Japan on the UN that's just as inevitable. I can imagine that Japan's apology in this case would run something like, "as the U.N. was borne from the ashes of World War II and to make amends . . . etc."

I'm no expert, but, this is all beginning to get a LOT of press, you know?

Toranaga wrote:

I agree, and if you take all of Japan's history then it's not much of a surprise that they have some problems with apologizing. I'm somewhat sure that, if my country would have never been invaded and if we'd have just lost one war in our entire history, I'd have my problems with that too. And look at Japan's history. Never invaded; only lost against the Americans; they never ended like China did with the Europeans, instead they successfully kept them pretty much out of the country under the Tokugawa... It all adds together. I think I can understand the Japanese position. *rambles & rants*

Hmmm...problems with never apologizing? What do you call this then?

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200110/08/eng20011008_81757.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1586040.stm

Koizumi has also visited South Korea and formally apologized to them too.

Other prime ministers have apologized or offered their deep regrets for war time atrocities the Japanese "Military" committed.

Did you even know that the Japanese Military had plans of overthrowing the Emperor when he decided Japan was going to surrender to the US?

Even though Japan has helped both China and Korea with lots of aid and technology (building of steel plants in China in the late 70's and early 80's, car manufacturing for S. Korea and other electronics)....nothing is good enough for some people.

People still today believe Japan has not apologized. When it comes from the prime ministers certain people classify it as a "personal" apology...not one from the government. Please....the Prime Minister of Japan is "elected" by the people of Japan. I think when he speaks...he's speaking on behalf of the nation but still I repeat...for some...it's just not good enough. Nothing ever is.

I'm not saying people should forget about the past but we need to move forward.

Japanese american are not rioting and beating up white people because Japanese americans were held in camps or because US text books distort what really happened.

Are native indians doing the same?

Should Japanese now beat up the Chinese living in Japan because the Chinese are beating up the Japanese living in China?

I truly feel sorry for all the victims during the war period because IMO...they got victimized twice. Once by the Japanese military and also by their own government. Settlements were agreed upon by Japan and Korea and Japan and China. Problem is....those governments never ended up passing on that compensation to the actual victims fully...so once again....they go back to Japan.

And here is what China's books don't say:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/04/13/china.japan.ap/

I think all countries are guilty of somewhat softening up the past in their history text books.

And if I can mention this....the Japanese text books in question are those made for JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL students. I have to assume 13-15 year olds. Is it appropriate to talk about blood and gore at this level?

If they were high school text books....I think that is a bit more appropriate. Still....the schools hav a "choice" if they want to utilize these books though. The Japanese people have a "choice" to read freely on the internet anything they want. Can the same be said of Communist China?

Anyhow...just thought I'd share some of my viewpoints.

Genma wrote:

Lets redirect this discussion to how you think this issue could or would resolve in the end. We've already dug deep into the history books and know that both parties have erred. Have they reached stalemate? I don't really see a good possible move by both parties. China hasn't given Japan a realistic chance to make up for it.. Perhaps the best scenario would be for Japan to apologize for the textbook and wartime issues, then ask China for compensation for the damages caused. I think they rightfully can ask for that at least... For China, don't see any possibility of them taking the first step backwards..

I say that since the text books were targeted for those of junior high school students....they are fine the way they are. In Japan, the schools have an "option" if they want to purchase those books or not for their students. It isn't forced by the government.

And Japan has already apologized for the war time issues in the past. So it appears to me that China needs to take the first step.

In addition, even if Japan never apologized in the past...that certainly gives no right to China or Chinese people vandalizing Japanese stores and people in China....especially when those events occurred 60 years ago. Japan has done way more good for China than bad in the last 30 years and recent but funny how people forget about that.

Yes.. maybe the Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has issued a "heartfelt apology" to Chinese victims of Japan's wartime aggression during a one-day visit to Beijing but what about his action in here?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1488305.stm
Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi visited a controversial shrine honouring Japan's war dead, including executed war criminals.

Don't you think his actions are a bit ironic?

I do agree to the fact that China has done wrong this time, by hurting innocent people.

Smiley_18 wrote:

Yes.. maybe the Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has issued a "heartfelt apology" to Chinese victims of Japan's wartime aggression during a one-day visit to Beijing but what about his action in here? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1488305.stm Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi visited a controversial shrine honouring Japan's war dead, including executed war criminals. Don't you think his actions are a bit ironic? I do agree to the fact that China has done wrong this time, by hurting innocent people.

Oh....so you want to believe Koizumi was honoring those who committed the atrocities during war? I tend to believe he honored those who were forced to serve their country and some as young as 16 who died.

Why would he honor those who committed the atrocities? He apologized for that and he acknowledged that those criminals paid for their guilt by capital punishment.

I repeat...other prime ministers have also apologized. I repeat...these prime ministers are "elected" by the Japanese people. It's their idealogies that put them into their positions. I'd like to think it's the view point of the majority of the Japanese people and government.

I don't know where all this distortion comes from that Koizumi honors war "criminals" or that Japan never apologized.