but the actions of the chinese and china are understandable. they may be very ignorant, but facts are facts.

MILLIONS of chinese have been massacared, killed, raped, humiliated( you should really go and read how they do it, pretty much worse than the what the jews suffered i think, but i cant compare this thing, i seriously dont have the courage to do so, go read up on nanking ) during the world war two.

Let PRETEND your ancestors ( your grandpa and grandma ) are the victims of the war ( under any category i mentioned ) , will you forget and forgive such actions being done do them? Its very easy for us to say WOW ITS SO LONG AGO FORGET IT AND MOVE ON. But what if you are those with their family line being victims of war? Our family line didnt suffered so we dont know.

IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE, we are humans. yes everyone should move on BUT history must be remembered to not repeat such things ever. THE SELF-PRIDE of the chinese who were humiliated must be reclaimed by remembering them.

YES, i know if japan is my country, i will support the idea of it, no one wants his or her own country to have a bad record.

The acts of the chinese in china prove that they are humans after all.

BUT i heard that only a few schools in japan acknowledge the use of the history text book ( like 20 or so ), so its the people in china overeacting abit on the matter.

NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE TEXTBOOK, CONFLICTS BETWEEN LAND ARE ALSO A REASON.

all this feelings prove that they all are humans. you should really understand them, not judge them. put yourself in their shoes

if every one can do this ( understand ), i dont think 60 years back will ever have a WW II

niko2x wrote:

me, i don't know, since we came here in '79. i usually steer clear of WWII talk unless i want to risk being in an argument...

Well, that blows. My family ancestors mainly fought in the Pacific war, and we remained relatively hate-free. I wonder if it does have to do with culturism/nationalism/getting invaded by someone historically considered inferior.
_________________

-=kitakaze=-

Well, lunch was lousy, so I'll take it out here.

First, should the Japanese school system insist on truth in its text books?

Yes. Of course.

Should everyone forget what happened in WWII?

No!

People have brought up the Japanese, German and Italian internment camps in the U.S. during WWII.

What good did it do to tell people about those camps? To keep that bit of history in our books? To be honest about it?

Well, I can think of about a million American Muslim's who should give thanks, because without that lesson... without that memory... most of the Muslims in America would have found themselves in camps a week after 9/11.

Once the hysteria of war passed, we realized that it was wrong to put all those innocent people in camps.

That lesson learned was the only reason we didn't repeat the mistake.

As to an apology from Japan to China...

I'll say it again. Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, his whole cabinet, and each individual Japanese citizen could offer a heart felt apology... and it wouldn't change a thing.

As has been stated here, Koizumi and a host of other Japanese officials have already offered apologies.

This isn't about apologies.

It's about bargaining power.

If it wasn't for the misstatements in the Japanese text books, the Chinese government would have found something else to use to whip up anti Japanese sentiment.

This is a political tool.

The same as WMDs were here in the U.S.
_________________

Babypicu wrote:

MILLIONS of chinese have been massacared, killed, raped, humiliated( you should really go and read how they do it, pretty much worse than the what the jews suffered i think, but i cant compare this thing, i seriously dont have the courage to do so, go read up on nanking ) during the world war two.

i kinda grew up listening to these stories, and i did grow up having a bad image of JPN and the people.

Babypicu wrote:

Let PRETEND your ancestors ( your grandpa and grandma ) are the victims of the war ( under any category i mentioned ) , will you forget and forgive such actions being done do them? Its very easy for us to say WOW ITS SO LONG AGO FORGET IT AND MOVE ON. But what if you are those with their family line being victims of war? Our family line didnt suffered so we dont know.

actually, i think i did mentioned that the only gradparent that i know IS a victim, and altho she understanably do not like to talk about it, at least she does not speak ill of them in front of me.

Babypicu wrote:

IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE, we are humans. yes everyone should move on BUT history must be remembered to not repeat such things ever. THE SELF-PRIDE of the chinese who were humiliated must be reclaimed by remembering them. all this feelings prove that they all are humans. you should really understand them, not judge them. put yourself in their shoes

i understand why my parents feel that way, but they (and all the younger CHN generations) must understand the too that my JPN friends did not bomb shanghai. people like takuya kimura did not rape chinese/korean women al over the place. so when they hold the grudge, do not label all JPN the same, because we are all unique individuals.

oh well, to eaches own.

kitakaze wrote:

Well, that blows. My family ancestors mainly fought in the Pacific war, and we remained relatively hate-free.

that's pretty "sugoi" and hurry for them. very few of the "old-schoolers" can do that, so for that, i applaud them.
_________________

Here's my Facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=logo#/kwan1?ref=profile

this thread cant be finished, it should have never been started in the first place. its overflowing with humane feelings.

and yeah i'm 16 1/2 and i just realised i grown up abit to write those stuff

Babypicu

I would have to agree that the actions of the Chinese in China are somewhat understandable. But it doesn't make sense to beat on some Japanese now for something that occurred 60 years ago. Those Japanese soldiers and officers needed to be punished and I know many were but many were not. However...I cannot go back in time and right what was done wrong even back then. If I could...I would.

And my grandparents and parents were the victims of war. My mom was like 4 years old in Japan and she still remembers being hungry and eating lots of yam or something like that and hearing war planes flying over and she used to get really scared. My dad was in the camps along with his brothers and sisters and my grandparents on my dad's side.

Nobody really talks about the past that much in regards to that far back. But my parents, relatives, and I still live here in the USofA and I'm thankful for that and I think it is a great country. It is not perfect and I don't agree with a lot of political stuff but hey....it's pretty good.

Now...I still don't think the hardships my parents, grandparents, etc suffered comes anywhere close to that of Chinese and Koreans but again as far as I know Japan has apologized to those countries and others for the war atrocities. I'd like to believe it has given compensation back in the form of aid and technology too.

I certainly agree history must be remembered. A few years back Japan and China participated in a joint production drama called A Son of the Good Earth.

It aired here in Los Angeles around 2 years ago I believe. It was really good IMO.

It was a drama about the Japanese who got left behind in China after Japan surrendered. It focused on a Japanese boy and how an older Chinese couple adopted the boy and took him in as their own. I felt some of it was biased towards the Japanese side but still for some Chinese to show such forgiveness in such a short period of time was amazing.

Back in HS which was a long time ago for me...it made me feel real good inside that I had a lot of Chinese friends and Filipino friends and also 1 Korean and even some Hispanics and one white guy and one black guy. We had different sub groups too but they were also intermixed. I think we all heard some things from our parents. We listen but we also come to our own conclusions and decisions. We are each individuals.

I hope there can be more peace and harmony amongst everyone.

Babypicu wrote:

this thread cant be finished, it should have never been started in the first place. its overflowing with humane feelings.

That's not a problem. Civilized discussion is fine. It's only when name-calling and profanity comes out do thing get out of control...

Quote:

and yeah i'm 16 1/2 and i just realised i grown up abit to write those stuff

That's a good thing, ne?

There's more to life than Aya-chan, ne?

bmwracer wrote:

That's not a problem. Civilized discussion is fine. It's only when name-calling and profanity comes out do thing get out of control...

Doing my Dan Akroyd impression from Saturday Night Live, "Jane, you ignorant slut..."



Live from New York it's Saturday Night!
-PCM

Babypicu wrote:

but the actions of the chinese and china are understandable. they may be very ignorant, but facts are facts. MILLIONS of chinese have been massacared, killed, raped, humiliated( you should really go and read how they do it, pretty much worse than the what the jews suffered i think, but i cant compare this thing, i seriously dont have the courage to do so, go read up on nanking ) during the world war two. [....] if every one can do this ( understand ), i dont think 60 years back will ever have a WW II

alright, man. get your facts straight. I know what happened in nanking, and it was horrible. But it's ridiculous how you can even mention the Holocaust. This shouldn't even be compared. Secondly, read your history books and find out the real causes of WWII. The Treaty of Versailles. American, Japanese, German, and Italian economic interests. The Munich Pact. Plus, the previous causes of WWI had also carried over such as the imperialism of numerous countries.

FusilliBernie wrote:

alright, man. get your facts straight. I know what happened in nanking, and it was horrible. But it's ridiculous how you can even mention the Holocaust. This shouldn't even be compared. Secondly, read your history books and find out the real causes of WWII. The Treaty of Versailles. American, Japanese, German, and Italian economic interests. The Munich Pact. Plus, the previous causes of WWI had also carried over such as the imperialism of numerous countries.

but isnt all begin becuz of some misunderstanding? IF PEOPLE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER WILL THAT HAPPEN? WILL SPARKS FLY? (leaders of countries tries to understands the feelings of the victims of the war, thirst for power blind them)

read this, you misunderstood me

babypicu wrote:

Quote:

I seriously do not have the courage to compare this thing

BmwM3Rod wrote:

But it doesn't make sense to beat on some Japanese now for something that occurred 60 years ago.

i did not justify and do not want to justify china actions

bmwracer wrote:

That's a good thing, ne? There's more to life than Aya-chan, ne?

i feel aya chan is my life lol

last comment...i agreed with most of what you said, babypicu..just correcting you.. cause the Munich Pact, if you know, was when Britain and France appeased Germany for their actions on the Rhineland and Czechoslovakia (sp?) . It was until Germany attacked Poland that they intervened. Britain and France tried to be understanding and look where it got them in.

Checkmate.

alright..i'm tired of this thread

FusilliBernie wrote:

last comment...i agreed with most of what you said, babypicu..just correcting you.. cause the Munich Pact, if you know, was when Britain and France appeased Germany for their actions on the Rhineland and Czechoslovakia (sp?) . It was until Germany attacked Poland that they intervened. Britain and France tried to be understanding and look where it got them in. Checkmate. alright..i'm tired of this thread

me too.... i edited some of my threads and i admit that i do not have enough knowledge to write in this thread, i apologise fusili. see you in other threads. aya chan~ here i come!!!

Babypicu wrote:

Strong Statement : I DID NOT TRY TO JUSTIFY AND DO NOT WANT TO JUSTIFY CHINA ACTIONS.

Uh, try not to testy using the uppercase stuff... You'll just snowball things into a big argument...

Quote:

sorry, morning wasnt good for me

Don't take it out on us, huh?

Take deep breaths.

bmwracer wrote:

Don't take it out on us, huh? Take deep breaths.

i edited it yeah

Hey, my grandparents suffered a lot during the war and they don't hate the Japanese, so why should I?

Why can't we just move on?

History is History...Period. Get on with your lives.

First of all, I'd like to state that yes, there is no denying the U.S. government's apology to wrongfully interned Americans (no qualifier needed. AMERICANS were wrongfully interned, and that's that). The dollar amounts can be debated, sure, but no one can correctly state that the U.S. said sorry about this most embarrassing time in our history. The U.S. put their money where their mouth was (yes, could've been more than $20,000) and a WRITTEN APOLOGY to the victim(s). That's solid. That having been said, it's because of these kinds of mea culpas that my country takes responsibility for's what makes me happy to be living in this greatest nation on the planet.

No one can credibly deny that assumption of blame. Hmm. Sounds pertinent to our topic at hand.

And speaking of making amends:

BmwM3Rod wrote:

And what on earth are you talking about in regards to Japan's eagerness to become a permanent member of the United Nations. Japan is already a member of the United Nations on a rotational basis. Why does China, South Korea, and North Korea have fears over this? Please explain to me.

The thing I should've clarified (I'm going over my previous narrative as I write this) is that they are not a permanent member of the UN Security Council (only the United States, China, UK, France, and the former Russia are). They're trying very hard, ergo, would LOVE to be a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
Why aren't they?
I'm not even gonna' begin to cite sources.
Guess why they're being hindered from permanent consideration?
Reason doesn't have only to do (if at all) regarding "drilling rights" tha's for damn sure.

BmwM3Rod wrote:

So far in recent history (last 10 to 30years), we have had Japanese citizens kidnapped by North Korean spies living in Japan, a Chinese nuclear sub in Japan waters, and North Korea shooting a missle over Japan.

Indeed. And does it seem like the potential for all of the above to continue happening still exists? Especially in the post-9/11 climate? Is Japan doing something about this? You can correct me if I'm wrong about this?

BmwM3Rod wrote:

And you now continue to accuse the Japanese government for never giving a formal apology when I showed it right to you. Do I need to provide the hotlinks again?

You can show those links to me again, sure. But, add the one that has the Japanese government's apology for their Imperialist ways. On a Japanese government website. Does THAT link exist? I'd love to be wrong about asking this question some day.



Including the following,

BmwM3Rod wrote:

So you're trying to tell me if it was written or engraved on a stone that would solve the problem? Please. No way. Those who harbor hatred will continue to do so.

I now go on to respond to another cool dude's post . . . Geezer:

Geezer wrote:

I'll say it again. Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, his whole cabinet, and each individual Japanese citizen could offer a heart felt apology... and it wouldn't change a thing. As has been stated here, Koizumi and a host of other Japanese officials have already offered apologies.

Indeed. I "cannot deny" that Prime Ministers of the past have apologized. Now, school me: are those apologies the same apologies that Prime Ministers of the past have made? The same apology that future Prime Ministers WILL make? Are Japanese Prime Ministers given a plastic coated "how to apologize" fold-out reference template once elected to office?
No?
So. Then. Where. Is. The Japanese government apology? The one w/enough mettle and metal to make both yaysayers and naysayers shaddap and appreciate the apology AND, above all, respect that apology? Where any protest AGAINST such an apology would be met with ludicrous respones. A steadfast apology where "those who harbor hatred" would be EMBARRASSED to continue to do so.
Where is such an apology? As we say in Hawai'i, "no mo'. D'as why."

Geezer wrote:

The same as WMDs were here in the U.S.

Ohhhhhh, man, geezer, no WONDER I'm not solely buying the drilling rights issue (I read up on it, by the way, and there might [I stress MIGHT] be something there; but, it ain't like the ubiquitous "we found no WMDs, mannnnn!" argument). Sheesh, and here I was thinking that a thread including this kind of talk was CLOSED BIG TIME, previously [The Man sighs, then puts on metaphorical golden boxing gloves-reserved-for-narration-bouts-specifcally-regarding-friendly-online-sparring-bouts-I-assure-you emblazoned w/"U.S.-justification-for-invading-Iraq-did-not-only-cite-'WMD'-as-the-sole-reason" decals]

One last thing I wanna mention regarding what BmwM3Rod said:

BmwM3Rod wrote:

I hope there can be more peace and harmony amongst everyone.

This is nicely put. I'd add the wrinkle, "peace through strength."

But, if Japan seriously wants to "move on," if they wanna be amongst a council of Allied nations, they need to beef up, they need to make a steadfast apology for the ages. They'll NEVER be on that Security Council if they don't make a solid apology for their Imperial ways.

W-w-w-w--w, fo' real, d'is the last thing . . . HERE's one of the best quotes regarding the topic of this thread thus far:

Geezer wrote:

Should everyone forget what happened in WWII? No!

It's friggin' why I keep saying "Japan, apology for ya'll past Imperialist ways if you want to even begin to have a bigger stake in the world/security community." They probably realize it, too. Is it a case where the cost exceeds the benefit for them?

Babypicu, my hometown was also heavily bombed during the war. The Allies tried to hit the industry, but usually hit living areas, since the target was between mountains. They could have killed my grandmother and my great-grandmother, true.

But the way I see it. It was war. I can live with it.

I can't hold the American bomber crews responsible, since they were soldiers, they followed orders. That's how the military works, in war and in peace. You get an order, you do what is ordered. There's no way around. I don't think that any of the pilots, bombardiers or gunners on the B-17s and Lancesters that bombed the industry in my hometown really wanted to do that, or wanted to be there. But they had to do it, because it was war, because their squadron leader ordered them to do it, and he got his orders from his wing leader, who got his orders from the group commander, who got his orders from... etc etc etc...

In war bad things happen, people die, that's the way it is. I can't change the past for hating the bomber crews for what they've done. Sure, the bombs have killed countless of innocent civilians on every front on every theater. But honestly. If I would have been in their position, I would have done it too.

It was war after all and you can't just say "no, I won't do that" when you're in the military in a war.


If you compare the Chinese and Japanese reactions over this issue, it's interesting. There are just a few, single incidents in Japan, nothing of great importance. Some nut sent white powder, another one made a bomb threat, and a few others sent razors to a few Chinese consulats, but that's about it.

Somehow the Chinese reactions remind me of what Greenpeace is doing when the Japanese decide to kill a few whales. What gives them the right to judge. I don't even want to know how many millions of Chinese were killed since their civil war after WW2. I think Mao killed more of his own people than the whole Japanese army (same appliles for Stalin's deeds compared to what the Germans did in Russia). Also, human rights in current China? I won't comment. It's always easy to point at somebody else and yell and ignore your own problems.

As for Japan's UN bid... I'd say "forget it". The concept of the UN is not working, and, if you keep history in mind, the UN has failed shortly after it had been founded already. I mean, there was Korea... I see the UN as a relict of the post-WW2 world, it's huge, it's purely bureacracy, and it can't enforce anything on its own (best examples Somalia and the whole problem with former Yugoslavia, for both it took the NATO or at least the US armed forces to get something done, it took combat units, not peacekeepers in white tanks and blue helmets which are "please shoot me" signs).

Now...

Germany also invaded Austria, tyvm. Ok, we let them in, but only because Göring threatened to bomb our cities if our chancellor wouldn't comply.

But I'll tell you one thing. I will never, under no circumstance, ever apologize for what happened in WW2, nor will I ever feel responsible for it. I wasn't there, my parents weren't even born back then, my grandmothers were both in their early teens. And, there is no collective guilt, the concept is sick, if that would be applied for everyone the outcome would be insane.

The whole apologizing to a country thing brings up another important question. How far back does the apologizing have to go? 60 years? 600? I think it's a valid question. The argument that Germany and Japan have to apologize because millions were killed because of them is weak. I mean, there were thousands killed during the Spanish Inquisition, the 30 Years War destroyed whole countrysides and Napoleon (who had his good parts too), well, he brought havoc over all of Europe. Where are those apologies? Where's the Italian apology for invading South Tyrol after the armistace in 1918? The Russian apology for occupying Japanese islands after the truce?

In order to keep it absolutely fair I'd say that a) the number of how many people killed doesn't matter. Millions or "just" thousands is unimportant. Arguing over how many people were killed is trivial and a waste of time. One dead civilian is one dead civilian too much; b) it doesn't matter how long ago it technically was. There could be the argument that there are still people alive from 60 years ago. But that would apply for any other conflict within the last 60-80 years.

The longer I think of it the more I'm tempted to say that Japan shouldn't apologize anymore at all. And I should go into Austrian politics.

Also... I'm still not surprised that the FPÖ managed to become the second strongest party in those fatal elections that brought us the EU sanctions a few years ago. If you get told that you're responsible for WW2 and the holocaust over and over again you get pissed off sooner or later.

And well, I think the concept of modern Japan or modern Germany apologizing rather weird anyway. I mean, hello? Germany is a democracy, so's Japan. In WW2 none of those were democracies. Things have changed, some people need to get that into their heads.

Of course, if I'd say all of this out loud on TV or radio I'd be called a nazi.

Toranaga wrote:

If you compare the Chinese and Japanese reactions over this issue, it's interesting. There are just a few, single incidents in Japan, nothing of great importance. Some nut sent white powder, another one made a bomb threat, and a few others sent razors to a few Chinese consulats, but that's about it. Somehow the Chinese reactions remind me of what Greenpeace is doing when the Japanese decide to kill a few whales. What gives them the right to judge. I don't even want to know how many millions of Chinese were killed since their civil war after WW2. I think Mao killed more of his own people than the whole Japanese army (same appliles for Stalin's deeds compared to what the Germans did in Russia). Also, human rights in current China? I won't comment. It's always easy to point at somebody else and yell and ignore your own problems. As for Japan's UN bid... I'd say "forget it". The concept of the UN is not working, and, if you keep history in mind, the UN has failed shortly after it had been founded already. I mean, there was Korea... I see the UN as a relict of the post-WW2 world, it's huge, it's purely bureacracy, and it can't enforce anything on its own (best examples Somalia and the whole problem with former Yugoslavia, for both it took the NATO or at least the US armed forces to get something done, it took combat units, not peacekeepers in white tanks and blue helmets which are "please shoot me" signs). Now... Germany also invaded Austria, tyvm. Ok, we let them in, but only because Göring threatened to bomb our cities if our chancellor wouldn't comply. But I'll tell you one thing. I will never, under no circumstance, ever apologize for what happened in WW2, nor will I ever feel responsible for it. I wasn't there, my parents weren't even born back then, my grandmothers were both in their early teens. And, there is no collective guilt, the concept is sick, if that would be applied for everyone the outcome would be insane. The whole apologizing to a country thing brings up another important question. How far back does the apologizing have to go? 60 years? 600? I think it's a valid question. The argument that Germany and Japan have to apologize because millions were killed because of them is weak. I mean, there were thousands killed during the Spanish Inquisition, the 30 Years War destroyed whole countrysides and Napoleon (who had his good parts too), well, he brought havoc over all of Europe. Where are those apologies? Where's the Italian apology for invading South Tyrol after the armistace in 1918? The Russian apology for occupying Japanese islands after the truce? In order to keep it absolutely fair I'd say that a) the number of how many people killed doesn't matter. Millions or "just" thousands is unimportant. Arguing over how many people were killed is trivial and a waste of time. One dead civilian is one dead civilian too much; b) it doesn't matter how long ago it technically was. There could be the argument that there are still people alive from 60 years ago. But that would apply for any other conflict within the last 60-80 years. The longer I think of it the more I'm tempted to say that Japan shouldn't apologize anymore at all. And I should go into Austrian politics. Also... I'm still not surprised that the FPÖ managed to become the second strongest party in those fatal elections that brought us the EU sanctions a few years ago. If you get told that you're responsible for WW2 and the holocaust over and over again you get pissed off sooner or later. And well, I think the concept of modern Japan or modern Germany apologizing rather weird anyway. I mean, hello? Germany is a democracy, so's Japan. In WW2 none of those were democracies. Things have changed, some people need to get that into their heads. Of course, if I'd say all of this out loud on TV or radio I'd be called a nazi.

Sad to say, it IS the intensity of what they did. The fact that B&W films are there to preach FOREVER just what the Japanese army did. The fact that bombs were dropped to save lives on both sides showed who was more responsible. And whatever they were in the past . . . Japan needs to own up to it and their neighbors are simply unconvinced of past acts of regretfulness. Or they can remain where they are (and, to be perfectly honest, I'm not at all advocating, nor would I be thrilled at, Japan breaking out of their SDF-ness).

It just seems that to me. I'm no expert.