Quote:

omb!!!!!!!!!!! first of all.... read again what im saying........... i said that "ppl can not expect to erase history from their lives".. "i dont care about history" as in im not gonna go out and start hating on japanese ppl........ okiez?!?!

it s ok, take it easy.. there is no doubt tt a lot of us here LOVE the japanese, am i right minna? correct me if im wrong k, love u all!

shibbyl3e wrote:

omb!!!!!!!!!!! first of all.... read again what im saying........... i said that "ppl can not expect to erase history from their lives".. "i dont care about history" as in im not gonna go out and start hating on japanese ppl........ okiez?!?!

Hey cool it you guys! Expressing opinions is fine and dandy but please refrain from attacking other members. If you don't like what they say then either ignore it or comment on it but not in a manner to say something like, "chinese people are ashamed of their own ppl?!?!?!? probably ppl like you."

That's pretty much out right attacking someone else. I'm not trying to pick on you or anything but just try to watch out for what you. If this topic gets any more out of control then I'm locking it.

atata wrote:

love u all!

guys, i know its off topic .. but she said the magic words (sentimental thats all)

was reading that japan has decided to drill oil in disputed waters between them and china inspite of this tension.. hmmm donno where it is going eh!

lolz hahaha......

okayyyyy...... who needs to cool down?!... im sitting calmly at my
comptuter replying stuff... is it the exclaimation markz!?!? welz.. thaz
juss how i type....

Quote:

was reading that japan has decided to drill oil in disputed waters between them and china inspite of this tension.. hmmm donno where it is going eh

pardon me, wad izzit abt? drill oil in disputed waters????

Although issues like this are important, I usually steer clear because a lot of people are unable to deal with their emotions. Nothing constructive gets done under those circumstances.
_________________

Thanks for stepping in, Elt.

atata wrote:

Quote: was reading that japan has decided to drill oil in disputed waters between them and china inspite of this tension.. hmmm donno where it is going eh pardon me, wad izzit abt? drill oil in disputed waters????

China calls Japan drilling plan a 'provocation'

Wed Apr 13, 5:42 PM ET World - Reuters


By Scott Hillis and Linda Seig

BEIJING/TOKYO (Reuters) - China reacted angrily on Thursday to Japan's plan to allow gas exploration in disputed waters, calling the move a "serious provocation" at a time when ties are at rock-bottom in a dispute over Tokyo's wartime past.


"This move by Japan is a serious provocation of China's rights and international norms," Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang said in remarks on the ministry's Web site.


"China has already made a protest to Japan, and reserves the right to take further reaction," Qin said, without elaborating.


A senior Chinese official, calling the energy dispute one of the main problems plaguing Sino-Japanese ties, had warned Tokyo on Tuesday not to award the test drilling rights in the East China Sea because that would "fundamentally change the issue."


Simmering tensions between the two Asian giants over a range of topics, especially what Beijing sees as Japan's failure to own up to wartime atrocities, erupted in China at the weekend, with thousands taking part in protests that turned violent.


Some concerns have arisen about a Japanese backlash. In Tokyo on Wednesday, members of a right-wing group shouted slogans at the Chinese embassy, where security has been tightened, and dragged Chinese flags behind two vans, a witness said.


Some Japanese media said officials had pressed for a decision on gas exploration before Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura goes to Beijing for a planned two-day visit from Sunday to seek a solution to the broader diplomatic impasse.


But Japanese government spokesman Hiroyuki Hosoda said the timing of the decision was coincidental, and Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said Japan was not trying to be confrontational.


"The aim is to turn a sea of confrontation into a sea of cooperation," Koizumi told reporters on Wednesday.


Qin said Beijing hoped to settle the dispute through negotiations, but could never accept Tokyo's view of the demarcation line for the East China Sea.


CLAIMS AND DISPUTES


China and Japan, respectively the world's second and third biggest oil consumers, are also at odds over China's own exploration for natural gas near an area Japan claims as its exclusive economic zone.


China overtook the United States as Japan's biggest trading partner in 2004 with about $178 billion in trade. Japanese corporations sank about $9.2 billion into China that year.


On April 1, Tokyo reiterated its demand that China halt its exploration and provide data on its gas development projects in the area.


Unless China provided the data, it would be hard for Japan to consider the possibility of joint development of gas fields, a senior Japanese Foreign Ministry official told reporters.


Japan considers waters east of the midway point between its coastline and that of China to be its exclusive economic zone. It has voiced concern that nearby gas field development by China would draw reserves from geological structures that stretch under the seabed into its economic zone.


The process of creating and awarding the rights is likely to take several months.


Teikoku Oil Co. and Japan Petroleum Exploration Co. said earlier this year that they would like to start exploring for oil and gas in the East China Sea as soon as possible if they got the government go-ahead.

WARTIME PAST

The decision on drilling rights follows Japan's approval last week of school history books that critics say gloss over Japanese wartime atrocities.

The move ignited passions in China and both North and South Korea, where resentment runs deep over Japan's brutal 1910-1945 colonization of the peninsula. Pyongyang late on Tuesday denounced the history texts, calling Tokyo a "political dwarf."

Machimura tried to ease the anger, telling a group of visiting South Korean lawmakers on Wednesday that Japan regretted having caused pain to South Koreans during its colonial rule.

Hosoda said Japan had apologized in the past for the suffering caused by its wartime aggression. But many in countries that were victims of Japan's World War II-era expansion feel past apologies have been insincere.

Thousands took part in the violent weekend protests in China which also targeted Tokyo's bid for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council.

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao told reporters in New Delhi on Tuesday that Japan must "face up to history squarely" and that the protests should give Tokyo reason to rethink its bid for a permanent council seat.

At the United Nations, diplomats said they were watching the feud closely.

A State Department spokesman sidestepped a question on the drilling rights spat, but urged the two sides to resolve their differences peacefully.

"We have always encouraged them to resolve bilateral differences in a harmonious and peaceful fashion, together, and we continue to encourage that," spokesman Richard Boucher said.

Tokyo has demanded an apology and compensation for damage caused to Japanese property in the protests. Beijing has not apologized.

(Additional reporting by Elaine Lies, Isabel Reynolds and Teruaki Ueno in Tokyo, Evelyn Leopold at the United Nations, and the Washington bureau. Editing by Emma Batha)

atata wrote:

Quote: was reading that japan has decided to drill oil in disputed waters between them and china inspite of this tension.. hmmm donno where it is going eh pardon me, wad izzit abt? drill oil in disputed waters????

news:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/e6739f94-ac03-11d9-bb67-00000e2511c8.html

well inspite of the fact that there is tension on textbooks and all .. this decision by the japanese govt has further complicated things .. so was just wondering where it all was going .. !! thats all.

there's alot for me to read manz, yon!

i think China is tryin to make the thing bigger. now the Japan demand apology. i think it s like when one person hit u, u shldnt hit him/her back. basicaly China use their 'own way' trying to make the Japanese to feel sorry. if they nv do all these 'destroying', China is definitely at the right side. now the 2 r in wrong! sigh...

I think mainland China needs to make themselves an example of global leadership. With their soaring economy and military might, they'll be a superpower very soon. That means they also need to be responsible and set an example for the rest of the world, and not become a bully towards Japan as it gets stronger.

Japan may have powerful right-wingers in important places, but China's autocratic government isn't exactly full of angels either. They need to talk things through without pride.

Not that it'll ever happen.
_________________

kitakaze wrote:

With their soaring economy and military might, they'll be a superpower very soon. Japan may have powerful right-wingers in important places, but China's autocratic government isn't exactly full of angels either. They need to talk things through without pride.

hopefully if they dont burn out before that the way they r going .. growing too fast i would say ..

well i dont know too much of the japanese govt .. but the chinese govt is not exactly the best situation i wanna be in... too much power centralization in just the closed party ... not good in such a vast country

kitakaze wrote:

That means they also need to be responsible and set an example for the rest of the world

Yeah, like in Tiananmen??

Quote:

Japan may have powerful right-wingers in important places, but China's autocratic government isn't exactly full of angels either. They need to talk things through without pride. Not that it'll ever happen.

Painfully true.

im speechless

Quote:

kitakaze wrote: With their soaring economy and military might, they'll be a superpower very soon. Japan may have powerful right-wingers in important places, but China's autocratic government isn't exactly full of angels either. They need to talk things through without pride. hopefully if they dont burn out before that the way they r going .. growing too fast i would say .. well i dont know too much of the japanese govt .. but the chinese govt is not exactly the best situation i wanna be in... too much power centralization in just the closed party ... not good in such a vast country

i agree with the above

Hi everyone am just here to put in my 2 cents. Being a Half-Japanese Half-Chinese living in Japan, this issue should really relate to me, but it doesn't. Japan (the media) seem to take this pretty lightly. It not even the major news of the night. I believe that the Japanese (younger generation) understand the Chinese, but what can they do? Say sorry for something their grandfather did? This rise of tension is all the work of the Chinese government (anti-japanese teaching in school), and for motives unrelated to this issue.

z123_us wrote:

well i dont know too much of the japanese govt .. but the chinese govt is not exactly the best situation i wanna be in... too much power centralization in just the closed party ... not good in such a vast country

Well...the Japanese government's got problems, but it's a democratically elected system that seems to work up to the taste of most Japanese people. A government of the people.

China's government is a close system of autocratic leadership whose abuses of power have probably been as bad as the military leadership of Japan after 1932.

bmwracer wrote:

Yeah, like in Tiananmen??

Exactly...although that wasn't really a massacre, it was a crackdown on expression and dissent, which is probably as bad. That is what China needs to avoid as they gain the power to support their global leadership.

Quote:

this issue should really relate to me, but it doesn't. Japan (the media) seem to take this pretty lightly. It not even the major news of the night.

It seemed to be major news on NHK the other night.... But of course, I can only understand, what, 15% of what they're saying?

Quote:

Say sorry for something their grandfather did?

It's not any one Japanese citizen's duty to apologize, it's the government which represents the Japanese in the present and the past.
_________________

-=kitakaze=-

Well, the way I see it...

Japan should at least get the history books right.

Personally I think we should stop apologizing anyway. It's been 60 years since the end of WW2, most people who were responsible for it are dead already. And I surely don't feel guilty about it, since I wasn't there.

It's getting annoying that, whenever you say that Germany and Austria have apologized enough, you get called basically a nazi. And I think we have apologized enough. Get the fuck over it! It's done!

I'm not saying to forget history, no. The truth has to be in history books and school books, but apologizing 60 years after the war ended is silly. Why would the current Japanese governmet apologize? I don't know how old the PM was back in WW2, or if he was even borm back then, but I seriously doubt that he's guilty of anything. It's like holding me responsible for Auschwitz.

The problem is, that those protests will pour some oil into the fire of those little right wing groups in Japan. Though, I don't think that will change much. Personally I find them somewhat entertaining with their black busses and their "sono joi!" yelling (proves that they know nothing about their own history and the sono joi movement). I actually enjoy annoying them.

The current Japanese government is democratic, and, as mean as it may sound, the Americans have bombed the militarism out of Japanese minds (just like they did it with our minds, in general, of course, I can't speak for everyone). The emperor has no say in anything important anyway.

I wouldn't mind seeing Koizumi do something like Brandt did in Warsaw back in the days. It would be a cool gesture. But then again, those who are responsible are slowly dieing out and it wasn't the fault of the current Japanese government. The same reason why I think that Austria and Germany should stop groveling to everyone over the history of WW2. Our current governments don't have anything to do with Nazi Germany. People should get that (especially those American jews who always whine loudest; No I'm not really anti-semitic, but it pisses me off how they always whine, while you barely hear anything from European jews or even Israel).

I still think that the history books would be quite enough. Especially since Japan wants a permanent seat on the UN security council, and atm China won't allow that.

Sure, there were atrocities, but well, Japan also had outstanding figures in the war. People like Saburo Sakai for example. I think the good and the bad parts of that history go hand in hand and thus should be put into history books.

As much as I hate what the nazis and the SS have done in the concentration camps, I surely find it amazing how we (Germany and Austria, since Austria was part of Germany at that point) kicked butt in France. Or how we evolved certain fields of engineering which changed the world (take the Tiger tank, or the Me 262, and yes, even the V1 and V2, without those two rockets Neil Armstrong wouldn't have been on the moon, there wouldn't have been a MIR, no ISS etc).

Those are two sides of the same coin. If you accept one, you also have to accept the other.

I believe that you have to accept your history, the good and the bad parts.

Toranaga wrote:

People should get that (especially those American jews who always whine loudest; No I'm not really anti-semitic, but it pisses me off how they always whine, while you barely hear anything from European jews or even Israel).

I gotta agree with you on that. True, don't forget what has happened in the past, but also don't let it run your life in the present. To keep carrying that chip on your shoulder for decades is unhealthy.

I knew a couple of Orthodox Jews a few years back who were my age (late 20's) and they wouldn't buy German cars because of what happened in WW2.... I'm more than sure that it was ingrained in their minds by their elders... To promote the fostering of such prejudices is just sad....

Quote:

Or how we evolved certain fields of engineering which changed the world (take the Tiger tank, or the Me 262, and yes, even the V1 and V2, without those two rockets Neil Armstrong wouldn't have been on the moon, there wouldn't have been a MIR, no ISS etc).

Yep, Dr. Werner Von Braun was key to the U.S. space effort.

ok, everybody juz get over it and move on in life, which is troublesome enuff..

Oppenheimer was German too, so was Einstein, without them, no nuclear weapons.

But you see...

My great-grandfather was a communist and imprisoned in Dachau and Buchenwald. And that wasn't fun, trust me. He never received any compensation or apology from the government (absurd? yes, just as absurd as apologizing today).

One of my grand-uncles volunteered to the SS and is MIA somewhere in Russia. I'm certain he committed warcrimes, SS in Russia... you get the point. And I'm not to sad that he's MIA, I think he got what he deserved.

The rest of my grand-uncles and grand-fathers were drafted to fight in that war. Most of them were shipped to Russia and many didn't come back from Stalingrad.

And yes, elements of the Wehrmacht committed warcrimes as well, but see... because Company B from Regiment X killed civilians doesn't meant that the whole army was like that.

People need to understand that and I'll be honest now.

I wouldn't want my last living grand-father to apologize for WW2. He was a soldier in the German air force, he was drafted, if he would have disobeyed they'd have shot him. He did his duty, he did what he had to do just like any other soldier, may it have been Russian, English, French, Italian, American, Chinese and Japanese.

It was war, people don't get asked if they want it or not. But it's over.

If pilots of the USN from the pacific theater can offer their hands to their counterparts from the IJNAF, well... the politicians should be able to do that too... but well... Politicians

(It's something I actually noticed not too long ago. The first ones to offer a hand in friendship were usually... soldiers who fought in the war. Not civilians, not politicians... I wonder why's that)

I should stop ranting...