Hibiki,

I totally agree with your points here, I'm chinese but I have never lived in China, I don't think any of my ancestors suffered directly from the Japanese invasion so I'm for the idea that the past is past and it should be left behind. However let me ask you this, if you were one of the Chinese who DID suffer directly from it, as in your great grandma and your grandma 's immediate family were raped, tortured, brutalized, and all sorts of other things, would you not feel obliged to set the record straight? Would you not want the people who did this, to know and uinderstand just what they did? The truth is a precious thing, yes China is communist machine capable of brainwashing their own citizens, but what's the difference between that and what the japanese are trying to do by altering their history books? Oh and by the way, where did this money BS come from? It's the CHINESE GOVERNMENT who started up this garbage for politcal reasons... please don't stereotype all the chinese as money grubbing hypocrites please, there might be people who have really suffered in those government organized protests! THOSE PEOPLE HAVE LEGITIMATE REASON TO BE PROTESTING.

I respect your opinion but like most of the posts in here, i'm affraid that you haven't backed up many of your inflammatory comments with much credible insight.... "they will worship their no. 1 idol in every housshold"? give me a break!

Besides that, i agree with your ideas the chinese government is .

Let the flaming begin anew.

A friend of mine is Chinese, her comments about it were pretty simple. "I can't believe we're behaving pathetic like this."

It's hard for me to understand the tension between China and Japan.

But it reminds me the the tension between Armenia and Turkey. Turkey doesn't want to recognize that they killed 1,000,000 armenians in 1915...

I could say, it's stupid...

But France had problems to admit what they did in Algeria in the 60's... When you admit your errors, it's not only words, you have to give money and you become indebted towards those you had offended.

So it's not easy to do, especially when most of the population weren't born when the events happened.

Hey, Mike, did you hear about the anti-Japan protests in L.A.?
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ahochaude wrote:

This is a very sensitive issue and I tried to stay away but my mouth wouldn't let me. After reading thus far, I think (and hope) that I have a valid opinion worth posting. So don't flame me on what I have to say, please?! As The Man has posted, a detailed documented apology is a great source of referance for future use. IMO, it should be done. No questions asked. In the world of business and politics, documentation is essential. (Words are and mean almost nothing. They can be altered and even erased from existance very easily) Documentation can last a lifetime and can also be referred to as a source of evidence of a certain event that has occured (ie: proof of a formal apology). --All the reason why Japan should create one. On the other hand...... As BmwM3Rod has posted, documention of an apology is good. However, it is subject to only the eye of the beholder. People will want to believe and live with or without hatred regardless if a legitamite documented source of apologies exist or not. A documented apology does not matter in the long run. (Hence, S. Korea) Japan has apologized before, and why should they do it again, especially in writing? Another reason is that since the probability of the documentation "solving the problem" won't be even worth the effort. So why do it?! So the question remains, how do we satisfy these type of people? -We can't. IMO (Japan should) just create a documented apology to all of Asia. If the Chinese government wants to find a way to call that apology "trash" and still find ways to harass Japan, let them. That won't stop them anyway. However, a documented apology serves as proof that Japan has attempted to "bury the hatchet" and apologize for their WW2 inhumane acts. As long as their (Japan) actions show that they are sincere with their apology (in which they are already, IMO), there is no reason why China (more or less any other country of Asia) should try to keep the "heat" with Japan. *brainfart*: Oh yeah, and Koizumi's visit to the shrine was done in respect to those who died for their country only. The Chinese and other Asian nations are using that as a "cop out" excuse to find faults in Japan's previous worded apology IMO. None of their business. IMO, that incident is so easy to twist into a wrongdoing. In conclusion, as long as Japan maintains their sincerity along with the (hopefully produced) documented apology, any nation who tries to find a way to "attack" Japan will be looked at "in the wrong". That documented apology will (somewhat) "protect" Japan. *brainfart*: Japan did it with S. Korea. Good. Japan has yet to do it with China. No good. No wonder most of the (published) heat is coming from China rather than from S. Korea. (Now I didn't say "all") S. Korea got one, China didn't. Time for Japan to do their due diligence. Who knows? If Japan does it with China, maybe things wouldn't be so bad as it is now with China. If Japan does and things are still the same, hey can't be helped. But at least it's documented. And China will look like an arse if they persue such "harassment" after the fact. Gonna click the "submit" button now. Hope I don't get flamed...

Good post. I think the Man's suggestion is a good one overall but as I said before it won't make a difference for many.

However....if an apology as such is given I think it should name all the countries involved or there should be an individual one for each country involved. Otherwise...it will just be seen as a "blanket" apology.

On the flip side doing some thing like this will most likely give future Prime Ministers of Japan a free ride for ever having to aplogize themselves again possibly. A future PM might just say....you want an apology it was already given...refer back to this date.

It's more easier to forget this way too. I don't believe that is a good thing.

Oh...and I think it is wrong for some to claim "Japan" as an entire nation is trying to change history. Simply untrue. Certain right wing activists of Japan have their warped view points and it is not fair of certain people of China and others to try and paint a picture that Japan is trying to change history. Please take a look as to what percentage of school systems would ever even use this book. Keep in mind what "junior HS students" should actually be reading.

I repeat...I see no substantive studies that show 18-30 year olds of Japan don't know what really happened. These certain reporters, lobbyists, newsgroup, etc. interview 15 and 16 year older Japanese teenagers and only do a couple of them and try and paint this picture that the entire population of Japan believes certain atrocities never occurred. Simply untrue IMO.

Anyhow...I hope we can move forward.

I guess you have to be a "victim" some how but even for me I think I've been a "victim" only twice that I can recall. My car stereo got stolen and my wallet got stolen one time. Pretty minor considering the atrocities committed to many other victims. I know for sure both times for me it was Hispanics who did it. Now I can't go hating on Hispanics. It doesn't make sense. I've met enough nice ones to know better.

Now we have Japan's foreign minister retorting back, describing Chinese history textbooks as "biased and lopsided". Even though it may be true to some extent and he was invited to give his opinions, those statements were very undiplomatic, especially in the situation we have today.

Looking at it, it really sounds like a bunch of 5-year-olds fighting..

"he started it!!"

"you hit me too!"
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hi there... it's this topic again

especially to Fatchan,

mm... ya, i don't have much backup substance on what i wanna talk about, actually, i just write out what i feel, more from the human side/psychological side, cos, most of the technical stuff, i can see that, a lot of others can do better than i can...

back to your question, i know it's harder to do than just for me, to sit here in front of my PC and talk... if really, i was a direct victim, or a victim descendant, but, already, today, i'm not in china anymore, i'll do my best, to help them, to know, to forgive... i guess, at this stage, forgiveness is the only solution, otherwise, as i said earlier, keep remembering ourselves as a victim, will only turn ourselves into monsters...

anyway, i'm just purely expressing my thought

hibiki

All I want to say is that THE PAST BELONGS TO THE PAST ! We can't change the history , what's done is done . there's no word to explain how bad and awful war is , but we just can't change anything .
Why don't people just turn the page and think about the present time and the future ?
Peace !

kitakaze wrote:

Hey, Mike, did you hear about the anti-Japan protests in L.A.?

Actually, no...

I did see news about the protest against the Turks for the Armenian genocide in the early 1900's... That seems to happen every year about this time...

Helene wrote:

All I want to say is that THE PAST BELONGS TO THE PAST ! We can't change the history , what's done is done . there's no word to explain how bad and awful war is , but we just can't change anything . Why don't people just turn the page and think about the present time and the future ? Peace !

i think this is just going to be those topics that is just going to have to be: I agree to disagree with you, and move on. It doesn't seem like the people (the political powers that be in asia, and also people in this forum) are reaqdy to move on, so aside from throwing mud, i'll prolly stay outta here until something constructive comes up.
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My Chinese friend who came straight from Hanzhou, China came to my country to study English. She lived with my friends and me for 2 months. The first day that I had a lengthy conversation with her, it was clear she was against anything Japanese. Her comment was simple regarding the issues between Japan and China and it's cruel enough that I don't want to post it here what she said to me. It is obvious that she has been taught to not to forgive the Japanese for what they have done to their people (in reference to history).

The Chinese seem to unable to forget what the Japanese has done to them 5 or 6 decades ago. Interesting though, in our history books it also points to the ruthless and unforgivable things the Japanese has done to our people 60 years ago (especially to women and children -- massacred, tortured, raped, mutilated, etc.). It�fs like the same things done by the Japanese to the Chinese (and Koreans too perhaps). But we have moved on. Although it is written in every Philippine history book, old people do not wish to encourage their children to uphold bitterness and rage towards the Japanese since they know it would only be pointless, especially since Japan has changed itself into the diligently hard-working and respectable nation that they have become.

Finally I told my housemate, �gWhat would you gain if you continue hating them?�h She couldn�ft answer. Forgive and forget, these are words easily said, but it takes like forever for anyone to really act upon. Forgiveness liberates one from bitterness. It�fs something the Chinese, and all of us need to consider doing, especially at these times.


Padme

The old saying in the west is: Forgive and forget.

The Japanese variation I heard in "3 nen B gumi Kinpachi sensei" was Forgive, but never forget.

As the great poet / philosopher George Santayana said:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to
repeat it."
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Geezer wrote:

As the great poet / philosopher George Santayana said: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Hmm, I had no idea who the originator of that saying was.

Until now.


BTW, I made essentially the same quote about ten pages back...

BMW

I read it. But considering the repetition of sentiment on this thread I suspect very few people are reading the whole thing.

So I figured I'd bump it up.

Besides... I'm a big Santayana fan and I like to give him cretit when I can.
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Geezer wrote:

I read it. But considering the repetition of sentiment on this thread I suspect very few people are reading the whole thing.

I think that's pretty much true for a most of the threads.

Geezer wrote:

The old saying in the west is: Forgive and forget. The Japanese variation I heard in "3 nen B gumi Kinpachi sensei" was Forgive, but never forget. As the great poet / philosopher George Santayana said: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Great quotes

I like the saying from "3 nen B gumi Kinpachi sensei" more than the old saying in the west

Santayana is a man of wisdom, i'll remember that saying for sure

Thank u Geezer for putting these up, i've learned something 2day

Geezer wrote:

The old saying in the west is: Forgive and forget. The Japanese variation I heard in "3 nen B gumi Kinpachi sensei" was Forgive, but never forget. As the great poet / philosopher George Santayana said: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Nice. Thanks for sharing.

Can't agree more with the latter two.
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i hate to just cut & paste, but it's a worthy read:
it's not just the chinese, but add s. korean to the mix:

Anti-Japanese Hostilities Move to the Internet
Chinese and South Korean Hackers Blamed for Digital Barrage Designed to Cripple Web Sites
By Anthony Faiola
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, May 10, 2005; Page A12

Quote:

TOKYO -- In the fortified control room of a major Internet security firm, a beleaguered team of experts slouched in front of glowing computer screens, tracking overseas hackers through billions of lines of data. They glanced up periodically at an electronic world map on the wall where, every few seconds, red lines lit up, revealing a new cyber-war aimed at Tokyo. Over the past several months, a series of attacks believed to have originated in China and South Korea have hit dozens of key public and private Web sites hosted in Japan. Authorities describe it as the heaviest assault ever perpetrated on the nation's computer systems from overseas. The angry demonstrations appear sharpened by a sense of strategic rivalry, as China's economic power grows and Japan looks to redefine its regional military role. In the newly adversarial atmosphere, China has opposed Japan's bid to become a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council, saying it is unfit for such leadership until it faces up to its past. In addition, old animosities were rekindled in China after Japan's Education Ministry approved new textbooks that critics say whitewash the history of Japanese aggression in the region. In the most recent incident, a coordinated attack was staged May 1 on the Web site of the Japanese Embassy in Beijing. Industry sources and analysts said the attacks have caused financial losses and disrupted work at government agencies, businesses and religious centers. The sources were unable to quantify the losses, but the Web sites of the National Police Agency, the Self-Defense Forces and the Defense and Foreign ministries have been taken down repeatedly. Japanese universities and companies such as Sony Corp.'s subsidiary in China have also fallen prey to hackers posting anti-Japanese slogans in Chinese. Last week, the government expanded its information security office in part to cope with the surge in attacks. The unit is now called the National Information Security Center and employs 25 people. Analysts compare the current situation to the "Sino-U.S. cyber-war" of 2001. In April of that year, a Chinese fighter jet collided with a U.S. spy plane conducting surveillance off the coast of China and crashed into the South China Sea. During the ensuing diplomatic confrontation, hackers in China claimed to have launched attacks on as many as 1,000 U.S.-based Web sites. The Web site for Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine has been hit by millions of "information bombs" that clogged its servers. Late last month, about 80 Japanese lawmakers made an official visit to the shrine, which deifies the nation's fallen warriors, including criminals from World War II. The shrine has struggled to allow access to its site, and Yasukuni's religious leaders recently posted a notice online describing the attacks as "a vicious challenge against the nation of Japan." Other Japanese companies and institutions have also had to contend with cyber-warfare, including viruses and timed attacks intended to shut down computer systems. Itsuro Nishimoto, executive director of SecureNet, a division of the prominent Internet security firm LAC, said the Chinese and Korean hackers "used to just have fun with us, but now they have become more vicious and have a clear intent to do damage." His company, he said, has had to dispatch more "emergency response teams" to its clients, including the Japanese government, to cope with the barrage.

if you want to read the whole thing, you have to register, but i figured i'll just post the meat of the article here.
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question! i've researched this for a long time and i just wonder why japan is hated by other countries like south korea?
oh if this topic was posted,it's ok if it needs to be deleted
here are some pictures

hmmm

This is disturbing.
Mostly because of war. They fought a lot. It's almost like France vs England, well maybe not THAT much.
This looks like kids' drawing though. My guess it's left overs from WWII, with grand-parents and parents teaches kids to hate people they never even met.
It's just racism.