Anyway, Kansuke and Uesugi and Takeda, were not warriors as we think of the term, not the kind we see in professional wrestling or whatever. They were commanders, and with the exception of Kansuke, holding heriditary rank. They may have been good fighters or indifferent fighters in individual combat, but surrounded by house troops in battle, that probably didn't come into play very often.

I wonder about Kansuke. In reality, with that limp, he probably would have sucked at kenjutsu, since a lot of the effectiveness comes from footwork. It may have been what drove him to strategy.
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For those who are interested, Chinese hard subs can be downloaded from

http://www.ppxclub.com/forum/6426-1-1

Torrents are up to ep. 36 and the most current ep. is usually released on the following Wednesday, ie ep. 37 should be released tomorrow.

Since the drama mentions quite a bit about Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' written during 6th century B.C., I found the Chinese subs a lot easier to understand than the English ones because of the direct Chinese quotations from the treatise.

Epi 42 finished up last night. I'm getting more impressed with Masaaki Uchino with every episode.

Itazura ichiban wrote:

Anyway, Kansuke and Uesugi and Takeda, were not warriors as we think of the term, not the kind we see in professional wrestling or whatever. They were commanders, and with the exception of Kansuke, holding heriditary rank. They may have been good fighters or indifferent fighters in individual combat, but surrounded by house troops in battle, that probably didn't come into play very often. I wonder about Kansuke. In reality, with that limp, he probably would have sucked at kenjutsu, since a lot of the effectiveness comes from footwork. It may have been what drove him to strategy.

Absolutely correct. Without footwork you're as good as toast. Also agree on the commanders. They not only had their camp surrounded by troops, they also had hatamoto, special, extremely trustworthy samurai, who would sometimes function as guards or deal with the really big problems and "special" activities (like Hattori Hanzo and Yagyu Juubei to the Tokugawa).

Now for the Taiga... I wasn't too interested in the beginning. I figured I'd only watch the first four episodes (only because Kanjiya Shihori was in those). Well, then I found out that Maeda Aki would be in episode 35. Guess who continued to watch. After all, it's: Aki + Jidai Geiki + kimono =

Though, I still think that the Taigas are somewhat growing weaker. Musashi was ok. Shinsengumi was a bit of a pain. Yoshitsune had me gag most of the time. Koyo ga Tsuji was an exception. Fuurinkazan, well, same level as Shinsengumi. I fear next year's. Atsu-hime. Couldn't they take a woman who really had impact on Japan's history? Hojo Masako maybe? Or... even Teru-hime in Aizu castle, or Nakano Takeko. Show us the real bravery of the Aizu Women's Brigade and the impact they had (screw those Byakkotai, they were insignificant on the battlefield)! No, they have to take an imperial princess who was married to one of the least significant and least important Tokugawa shoguns (the guy ruled 5 years)... bleh... I had such high hopes, because I was waiting, hoping for a Taiga with a female main character. And then this. Blargh.
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I don't think they can stretch the story of the Aizu Women's Brigade to 49 episodes. The Sengoku and early Tokugawa make better long stories because they fall in the "legend" time periods. Bakumatsu stories could work, but they have to be very character driven which Shinsengumi! completely screwed up.

Well, they make up stuff with almost everything else, so why not there? Or at least, a TV special.

It should be possible for a decent writer.

Heck, in Musashi, after the duel with Sasaki Kojiro... ugh... it was dragging and dragging along. And it still took 12, or so, episodes to finish it. Honestly, it can't get any worse than that. So the Joshigun should work as a Taiga. But as it is, I'd be satisfied with a two-part tv special (without hype for the byakkotai (and no, I still don't get the hype around them, their impact on the battlefield was insignificant, the castle was defended mainly by the women (Yamamoto Yaeko and her artillery!); so these boys committed seppuku, big deal, you don't win wars with that; they'd have my respect would they have gone down fighting to the last man or, at least, a final charge at the enemy lines with fixed bayonet, but they chose to kill themselves on the edge of the battlefield, far away from the action, pffffff)).

And frankly, if they can make a Taiga about an insignificant imperial princess who married an insignificant Tokugawa shogun, then NHK should be able to make one Matsudaira Teru-hime even easier.
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Takekaze wrote:

Heck, in Musashi, after the duel with Sasaki Kojiro... ugh... it was dragging and dragging along. And it still took 12, or so, episodes to finish it.

Yeah, they really milked the end of that with the Yagyu plotline...

Really neat site on Sun Tzu:
http://www.sonshi.com/

Apologies if it's been mentioned before
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I'll admit I'm one of the few people who liked the post-Ganryu part of Musashi, but that's another topic. I think even embellishing events for the Joshigun would still be a herculean effort to get it to 49 episodes. Most of the subjects of the Taiga Drama have tales that span years if not over a decade. I think the best situation would be an 11-12 part episodes like Shinsengumi Keppuroku.

If I had to guess why the byakkotai are more popular, it would have to be romanticism. They sacrificed themselves in their youth. For whatever reason, the Japanese love this. Remember the Shinsengumi are tremendously popular, and they were another group that was insignificant in the whole of the Bakumatsu. Were it not for popular media(novels,movies) they would have went down in history as another gestapo-like police force. But they were young men in flashy haoris that swore their lives to the Bakufu and that is romantic. Ever wonder why we hear so little about the Mimawarigumi who did the same thing? No flashy uniform and young men.

Contrary to hype, the Taiga Dramas aren't really about significant historic figures; they're historical dramas. Thus they choose figures that make the best stories and leave it to the writers to screw it up. <cough>Shinsengumi!/Yoshitsune</cough>

Kijinnmaru wrote:

Contrary to hype, the Taiga Dramas aren't really about significant historic figures; they're historical dramas. Thus they choose figures that make the best stories and leave it to the writers to screw it up.

Ahem, that's called "Artistic License."

Maybe more fitting would be "Autistic License."

bmwracer wrote:

Ahem, that's called "Artistic License." Maybe more fitting would be "Autistic License."

Either one should be revoked for some Taiga writers.

Kijinnmaru wrote:

Either one should be revoked for some Taiga writers.

Are they really to blame or is it NHK themselves....?

bmwracer wrote:

Ahem, that's called "Artistic License." Maybe more fitting would be "Autistic License."

*throws himself away laughing* Well said.

Kijinnmaru wrote:

If I had to guess why the byakkotai are more popular, it would have to be romanticism. They sacrificed themselves in their youth. For whatever reason, the Japanese love this. Remember the Shinsengumi are tremendously popular, and they were another group that was insignificant in the whole of the Bakumatsu. Were it not for popular media(novels,movies) they would have went down in history as another gestapo-like police force. But they were young men in flashy haoris that swore their lives to the Bakufu and that is romantic. Ever wonder why we hear so little about the Mimawarigumi who did the same thing? No flashy uniform and young men.

I would say that is absolutely correct. Or take the Tokkotai. Personally, I think the Byakkotai were stupid boys. If you have to die and there's no way out, then do it in a blaze of glory. Like... Pickett's Charge. "Virginians! Virginians! For your land! For your sweethearts! For your wives! For... Virginia! Forward... MARCH!" Right up that bloody hill into the Union cannons (yes, it was Lee's biggest error, but whenever I see the scene in "Gettysburg"... *deep breath* like the scout Harrison says to Longstreet before the charge "Sir, I'd like to ask for a rifle and maybe a jacket so I can take part"). Imagine if the Byakkotai would have done something like that, they would have easily surpassed the Shinsengumi in popularity. What if... haha, pointless, I know.

I should write one. The Bakumatsu would offer plenty of stories. Shimabara Rebellion (yes, a "bit" earlier) would be interesting as one, too. Or the fall of the Hojo and the rise of the Ashikaga. OR! Hojo Masako!
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Takekaze wrote:

*throws himself away laughing* Well said.

I have my lucid moments.

Takekaze wrote:

I would say that is absolutely correct. Or take the Tokkotai. Personally, I think the Byakkotai were stupid boys. If you have to die and there's no way out, then do it in a blaze of glory. Like... Pickett's Charge. "Virginians! Virginians! For your land! For your sweethearts! For your wives! For... Virginia! Forward... MARCH!" Right up that bloody hill into the Union cannons (yes, it was Lee's biggest error, but whenever I see the scene in "Gettysburg"... *deep breath* like the scout Harrison says to Longstreet before the charge "Sir, I'd like to ask for a rifle and maybe a jacket so I can take part"). Imagine if the Byakkotai would have done something like that, they would have easily surpassed the Shinsengumi in popularity. What if... haha, pointless, I know. I should write one. The Bakumatsu would offer plenty of stories. Shimabara Rebellion (yes, a "bit" earlier) would be interesting as one, too. Or the fall of the Hojo and the rise of the Ashikaga. OR! Hojo Masako!

I think Pickett's charge is a bad example because the Confederate forces could have disengaged from the battlefield after the successful first day. It wasn't a matter of "no choice" but "incredibly stupid choice". Of interest, ever notice the Shinsengumi are popular for their time in Kyoto when they were fighting and committing suicide, but the interest wanes afterwards when they fought to their own destruction? I think the suicide ritual is the reason behind the popularity, more so than the devotion to duty. Romanticism?

Kijinnmaru wrote:

I think Pickett's charge is a bad example because the Confederate forces could have disengaged from the battlefield after the successful first day. It wasn't a matter of "no choice" but "incredibly stupid choice". Of interest, ever notice the Shinsengumi are popular for their time in Kyoto when they were fighting and committing suicide, but the interest wanes afterwards when they fought to their own destruction? I think the suicide ritual is the reason behind the popularity, more so than the devotion to duty. Romanticism?

Well yes, the battle itself was not Lee's best moment, however, the charge itself is one of those moments... I can't help it

Yep. It's the same with Saigo Takamori. The little rebellion wasn't really popular, but he entered history because of his seppuku. Now he's called "last samurai" and that makes me very itchy (I consider him a traitor and warmongerer ("my emperor, we must attack Korea!" "Uhmm... no." "Rebellion!")). Or Yoshitsune. His tragic end at such a young age really made him a legend. The brilliant, young general, betrayed by his own brother! Forced to commit seppuku while this handful of loyal followers kept the enemy away! That's how legends are born.

Just like the 47, though in their case I must say that, especially in the Edo period, their popularity stemmed from the fact that they, more or less, told an extremely unpopular shogun to go and F himself. They opposed the leadership of a corrupt government over the unfair treatment of their clan and daimyo, and that's what made it popular in Edo Japan (the irony, their lord wasn't as popular as the play might suggest, he had more than 300 retainers, not even 1/6th rebelled for him). They were later transformed into a different ideal, into the "let's die loyally and happily for the emperor" propaganda type. The play was altered 13 times during the years following the Meiji Restoration. Five times during the Meiji period, three times during the Taisho period and another five times during the early Showa years.

The problem I have with them is, they waited a year so that they would have their success. I'm with Yamamoto Tsunetomo there, they were too focused on their success and that makes it a bad story about bushido and loyalty. However, it's a kickass story of revenge.
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Revenge and duty. Their duty was to avenge their lord and they succeeded. That's why I side with the Ako ronin. They had a mission to see through and did it. Their seppuku was less for their lord and more that they were owning up to their responsibility. They knew what they did was illegal and knew they had to pay for it.

I'm not a fan of Yamamoto Tsunetomo, or "classic" bushido for that matter. I think what most Japanese and the rest of the world sees as the "way of the warrior" is Yamamoto's BS. Yamamoto lived and wrote about "bushido" several generations after Japan had finally entered a period of peace. Bushido to him was more about legitimizing a warrior class during extended peace. It's easy to spout about the warrior code when there was no war to fight.

Bringing things back to Fuurin Kazan, you'll like the end of Yamamoto Kansuke.

Kijinnmaru wrote:

Revenge and duty. Their duty was to avenge their lord and they succeeded. That's why I side with the Ako ronin. They had a mission to see through and did it. Their seppuku was less for their lord and more that they were owning up to their responsibility. They knew what they did was illegal and knew they had to pay for it. I'm not a fan of Yamamoto Tsunetomo, or "classic" bushido for that matter. I think what most Japanese and the rest of the world sees as the "way of the warrior" is Yamamoto's BS. Yamamoto lived and wrote about "bushido" several generations after Japan had finally entered a period of peace. Bushido to him was more about legitimizing a warrior class during extended peace. It's easy to spout about the warrior code when there was no war to fight. Bringing things back to Fuurin Kazan, you'll like the end of Yamamoto Kansuke.

Hey now, I usually don't like Yamamoto Tsunetomo either. His ramblings about women, for example, yikes... I'd thwack him would he still be alive. Taira Shigesuke (Daidoji Yuzan) was closer to the era of war than Yamamoto, so I prefer his writings. Yagyu Munenori also wrote a few interesting things, same with Musashi, but they focused a bit too much on fencing. Nevertheless, their works are quite an interesting read.

The thing with "duty" in the case of the 47 is a problem, though. I mean, yes, they had their duty towards their liege lord. Correct. But, their liege lord was a retainer of the shogun, thus they also had a duty towards the shogun. Which leaves them in quite a dilemma. Should they follow their duty to their master? Or should they follow their duty to the shogun who is the master of their master? I don't think it was an easy decision, and we see this motive appear again later, with the Shinsengumi and the imperial restoration. Yes, they were on the side of the shogun, as it was their duty as retainers of the shogun and every samurai was a retainer of the Tokugawa. However, the "rightful" ruler was the emperor and the shogun was nothing more but a "steward" for the emperor. Who do you follow in such a situation? If I may say so, that really sucked.

And the biggest problem I have with the 47 is: they kill Kira, so far so good. They bring his head to the grave of their master, fine. And then... they hand themselves in to the shogun. I still think that was a bad decision. It makes the whole thing look as if they were hoping to get away with it. They knew it was illegal, they should have comitted seppuku right away. Instead they wait for the shogun to sentence them to any punishment. Oh well, nothing is perfect.

But I think we agree on one thing: Kira had it coming.

I'm looking forward to the end of Fuurinkazan. Curious who else bites the dust. And, I've already preordered the DVD sets.
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Musashi and Munenori were both children of the Sengoku and its immediate aftermath. Because of this, their main focus had been the refinement of their swordsmanship and strategy, and not to worry about much of the bushido "fluff". Tsunetomo is what I consider a "parade" samurai; he plays samurai but never has to put his money where his mouth is. His criticism of the Ako ronin would have been a great symbolic victory. In the circles I run in, a symbolic victory is an excuse the loser uses to justify losing.

As for the aftermath, it's one of those mysteries that went to the grave with the ronin. Did they think the shogun would pardon them, or did they turn themselves in to face their punishment for disobeying the shogun?

I really can't miss this taiga
The quality of the video is excellent !!
I expect something very enjoyable !!!
I will try it , i only have 4 episodes now
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