Why Do Other Countries In Asia Resent Japan?

[kitakaze]

The Yasukuni Shrine issue is something that I feel is not anyone else's business but Japan's. Although it is used as a symbol by right-wingers at times, the original purpose of the shrine during the Meiji and Taisho era, and probably still today, was to console all souls, no matter what they did, or who they were. There's even foreigners enshrined there. Anger at Koizumi visiting it shows a lack of understanding in Japanese culture.
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-=kitakaze=-

[The Man]

Is there no source sponsored by the Japanese government that shows an official apology? Or are we limited to newspaper accounts that offer the PM's quotes that can be misconstrued as his own personal feelings.

Is there such a source? Can somebody link it? I'd sure like to see it.

Because obviously, these "apologies" apparently offered by "Japan" isn't enough to stop the flow of complaints. Aren't enough for recent protests to join the ranks of news items like UFOs or the Loch Ness monster.

If Japanese citizens decide to discredit Chinese, Filipino, etc., demands for war apologies, the best thing they can arm themselves with is a copy of a Japan's bona fide apology to show the naysayers.

WOULD they be able to arm themselves so? Today?

[Toranaga]

First of, BmwM3Rod, actually the Japanese military was pretty split up by August 1945, so you're not really telling anything new. The hardliners wanted a little coup against the emperor and eventually carry on with the war, the moderate parts were for the surrender, which isn't new though. When you look at the history right before WW2 (take the February 26th Incident from 1936) then it's clear that the military has been split up into radicals and moderates before (which is also not a Japanese-only phenomenom; take Hitler's attempt of a coup, which got him imprisoned, before he was elected in Germany).

As for the apology, well, sure they've done it in a way. So have German chancellors before Willy Brandt, but it was him who made the largest impact.

And ever since you find German and Austrian politicians groveling... which actually pisses me off... *rubs head* Just a few days ago one of them, I think it was the German president, said in Berge Belsen that "we must not forget out responsibility"... I hate it when they're trying to guilt trip the generations who were born after the war for it.

As much as I hate right-wingers as Haider... sometimes they've got the point right. Sorry to say that.


Secondly, I've been at Yasukuni last year, and I'm going to visit it again this year. I disagree with having those 14 class A warcriminals enshrined there, but eh... those are only 14 and I can't really change it, nor is it my business to get it changed, nor can the Japanese PM change it, since it was the decision of the Shinto priests there to do it. Also there are at least hundreds (and I'd say a lot more than that) of other people enshrined who definitely deserve it. Again, you can't judge all of them by just those 14. That's wrong. That's like judging German soldiers who're laid to rest on a graveyard by the deeds of Himmler or Eichmann.


Another thing...

It seems that China is reducing Japan to WW2. There's nothing else but WW2. Obviously the Chinese forget that Japan and China had extremly close ties in trade and cultural exchange in the past. Take the Heian period in Japan which had an extreme Chinese influence. They completely forget things like the Tokugawa period, which brought nearly 260 years of peace to the whole country and with that a cultural boom basically unmatched in history (if you compare it to Europe, sure we had similar things, but nearly 260 years at peace? Only in your dreams). Yet, the only thing that exists seems to the WW2. Defining a country by just that is... pretty sad.

That's like defining the British by how they treated people in India, or defining the Americans by the Mexican War. Or... defining the Germans only ba WW2 as well (like the US army actually did it).

I remember a propaganda and education movie from the US armed forces filmed right after the war. It was made to prepare US soldiers for their duty in Germany. It's quite an interesting movie, since it reduces the Germans completely to their role in WW2. There's nothing before that, only what the Nazis have done.

I think that's the same as some Chinese try to do it right now.

And finally...

Today's Japan Times, views from the street:

Quote:

Kae Suzuki Office worker, 20 I think it's natural. Of course we've made mistakes, but our history isn't just the war. Maybe the Japanese government should apologize more clearly, but the Chinese have to see history as not just the war.

[Fatchan]

I think we should first concentrate on the issue at hand in order to see through this more clearly. I am completely convinced that this whole mess was started purely for politcal reasons but since the Chinese government has allowed this to get out of control it has blossomed into a confrontation with an ugly part of history. The fact that the chinese routinely torture, brainwash and mistreat their own citizens does not change the fact that the japanese did in fact invade, rape, pillage, slaughter and occupy parts of china during world war II. The fact that they did this is accepted in all parts of the world except for japan. I think it is perfectly reasonable for anybody to want a sincere apology for these actions which were deliberate and uncalled for. How can they do this you might ask? Well they can begin by following what Germany has done, by renouncing any and all of the Nazi party's idealogy as unacceptable. No one would deny that Germany has apologized, and i think japan should do the same (under ideal circumstances they would have done so already and the other south asian countries wouldn't have so much against them).

As for the war criminals at the Yasukuni Shrine, I agree that it isn't anybody's business who is enshrined there, but think about it this way, imagine if members of Hitler's SS were "enshrined" and the Germany's current leaders actually went to pay tribute there. Imagine the uproar that would come from the jewish community over this. I think it was a bad call of judgement for the Japanese PM to go visit there, if only for political reasons (since he is a poltician i think that reason is quite valid). Empathising with japan for the reason that they have never been conquered seems kind of ridiculous to me, i don't see how apologizing for past attrocities is even remotely linked to whether apologizing is the right thing to do.

At the same time, I think what is happening in china at the moment is disgusting. What we have have is a government backed show of the ugliness of the society that exists there. I don't understand how they can expect an apology by using violence. China of all countries should know how to deal with japan since they have been aware of each other since forever. I feel that China should also apologize for their outrageous behavior.

End of rant! Hope i didn't piss anyone off

[Toranaga]

Interesting point: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20050419f1.htm


Well, Soviet troops have raped too when entering Germany in WW2. I don't recall a Soviet apology (maybe I missed it, but I don't remember anything ever mentioned). Technically Putin (together with the PMs and presidents of other former Soviet coutnries) would have to apologize.

*thinks the whole issue is somewhat ridiculous 60 years after WW2* The people who were affected by the war are dieing out already. And when looking at footage on CNN or Euronews about the riots, I only see people around my age, maybe some around 40-50, but basically no one around 70 or 80... Kinda funny...


By the way, I also expect the Italian government to apologize for invading what is today known as Austria, Germany, France and UK under Julius Caesar.

I mean, if every country would apologize for what it has done in the past... We'd spend years doing that...

I still say, get the fuck over it, the war's been over for 60 years for crying out loud. Of course, don't forget it, put it into history books, but stop guilt tripping the generations who were born after the war. We're not responsible for it.

[BmwM3Rod]

Fatchan

I totally agree that this whole mess started purely for political reasons.

And you are right...what China has done doesn't change what the Japanese "military" did. But the point being made is that many are accusing Japan as a nation and government of distorting text books and making it sound like the Japanese people themselves are being brain washed into believing some things never occurred. IMO, that's simply nonsense.

I repeat Japan is not Communism. They have their certain freedoms just like the US. Those text books are for Junior High School students. Of course...many could care less. They feel all the violence and gore should be available for 13 to 15 year olds.

And you say it is perfectly reasonable for anybody to want a sincere apology. What exactly is sincere? How many times must Japan apologize for the same thing 60 years ago. Now we want different apologies for different occurrences? That would be never ending.

And you're trying to tell me that Japan has not renounced what happened in the past? Please. After WWII, Japan certainly learned it's lesson and stayed away from any type of militarism for the longest time.

And as far as other south asian countries still having so much against Japan...it's no different than any other individual who hate on a race for something that occurred so long ago. It's not right to hate but at least hate just that person...not that person's race. It's amazing how this simple concept can't be followed.

And as far as the shrine....you make the same mistake as others. You tend to believe he visited the site to honor the war criminals. When for some reason you cannot just accept that he is honoring those who died for their country in which many were forced to serve in the military.

[Fatchan]

I can see the logic behind the apologies that are due from other invasions and i admit that i am not that well versed in the history of all those other invasions. However I believe you have made a slight attribution error here, Julius Caesar and what happened during his time is more than 2000 years in the past. You are comparing the events of just half a generation ago to the events that occured 2000 years ago... i fail to see the relevance of that comparison. Please bear with me i am just stating my opinion as others have done and i obviously am a great fan of japanese culture or else i woudln't even be at this site. by experience japanese people are some of the most courteous and agreeable people around.

The fact that the PM went to honor other war heroes and not war criminals has not escaped me, and i don't wish to label it as right or wrong. The point i am really trying to make is that if you want to understand why people are dismayed by the PM's decision to go to the temple, just think of that analogy of Hitler's SS i made in my earlier post. As someone said earlier what the japanese do with their own temples is none of my business but the fact that they have war criminals enshrined beside war heroes puzzles me. I think going to the temple was a bad POLITICAL decision and something that could have been avoided with some good judgement.

Please dont' feel offended at my comments because I truely believe that the route to peace is through forgiveness. You are totally right, wat we should really do is agree over the facts of what happened, document it as part of history and move on and concentrate on how to build a better future for everyone.

[The Man]

If Japan's serious about acquiring a seat on the UN security council, they better be conscious of two things: 1) in that role, they might have to throw down as need be (if they're supposed to be so non-militaristic, can they handle executing such peace through strength on a large scale? In accordance with the requirements by the UN?). Will their soldiers be respected, especially by Asian nations? 2) they're gonna be part of a body that renders recommendations for peaceful resolutions between conflicting nations; and if the backlash is as bad as it is currently, in a climate where Japan's place is merely being proposed, can you imagine the heat Japan'll feel by their fellow UN Security Council members alone if such conflicting nations include Asian areas such as South Korea, the Phillipines, etc. refuse such decision(s) based on Japan's presence alone?

And I agree with another thing �Ean apology by Japan now is not the same as an apology from Julius Ceasar's state; if for no other good reason, those victims of the abominations committed by Imperial Japan STILL alive (I do NOT buy but, these victims slowly dying of old age each and every day, so, let's just ignore it and they'll go away, in all actuality). Would you be satisfied if your elders, grandparents, etc., had stories to tell about the atrocities? With horror and a tear in their eye "despite" all the apparent "apologies" made? Without being able to seriously straigh-faced add, at least, that the offenders made an act of contrition? Maybe these recent protests by the youth IS all-and-all justified.

I keep saying that there needs to be an agreed-upon written manifesto by Japan. Doing THAT would exactly be sincere. What should be written? Well, to borrow a WWII icon's words, Hemingway said that the truth has a certain ring to it; Japan needs to have a gut-honest write-up that covers all the bases. One enshrined in bronze or whatever in the center of Tokyo. One signed by every Prime Minister elected. One that quashes the complaints and impresses even the most pained who were directly affected by Japan's actions as an Imperial nation.

One, maybe, that would gain credibility if Japan �Eif they become a member of the UN Security Council, and assuming it wouldn't already be done by that time �Ecould propose as a resolution to be reviewed by all nations. That would be, at least, an attempt at honesty about their atrocities. And it HAS to be honest enough that leaves no questions.

And if I'm wrong about the aforementioned processed, there's one thing for sure -- there's no ONE document that can be referred to, authored by Japan, that pronounces an apology for the terror they committed during WWII.

And, so, there's no question what such an apology should contain. OK?

You know, when Hirohito ended up walking among the masses at the end of WWII, they were able to see that he was made of flesh and walked around the same way they did, and had stubble and worried eyes, etc., that . . . that spoke volumes. He wasn't the god they were made to believe he was. You'd think that a formal, permanent apology was the next step. WHERE did that go? There seems to be a disconnect which extends 'til today, where Japan wants a seat on the UN Security Council.

And right now, if Japan ends up acquiring this seat, to the majority of East Asia -- the region they'd basically help to represent on the UN Security Council figuratively or otherwise -- Japan's just gonna look like the guest that appears at the potluck empty-handed. Actually, right now, you know what? The dishes they make respective PM bring were too cloy to be acceptable from day one [one thing I'll apologize for is this extended potluck analogy. Rough draft. What you gonna do? ].

[BmwM3Rod]

The Man wrote:

If Japanese citizens decide to discredit Chinese, Filipino, etc., demands for war apologies, the best thing they can arm themselves with is a copy of a Japan's bona fide apology to show the naysayers. WOULD they be able to arm themselves so? Today?

Why would Japanese citizens need to carry around some bona fide apology to justify anything? Is it because Chinese or Filipinos, etc. are harrassing the Japanese citizens themselves for some type of apology? Seriously...sounds pretty ridiculous to me.

I'm Japanese american and my grandparents and parents and relatives were in the camps. I don't go around nor do my parents or anybody go up to some white person and say hey your government locked us up and took away our property and vandalized it. You owe me an apology. Sounds quite ridiculous doesn't it?

Now...can I honestly say no Japanese american still harbors ill feelings against the US for what occurred 60 years ago? Of course not. But those people simply cannot move on IMO. They rather focus on the bad stuff in the world anyhow and blame others as to why their life is miserbale or whatever. Nobody said life was easy. You move on and go forward.

So I say...you cannot create any type of more formal apology or whatever and I guarantee you that it STILL won't be good enough for some and many.

[The Man]

BmwM3Rod wrote:

I'm Japanese american and my grandparents and parents and relatives were in the camps. I don't go around nor do my parents or anybody go up to some white person and say hey your government locked us up and took away our property and vandalized it. You owe me an apology. Sounds quite ridiculous doesn't it?

Interned Japanese-Americans were given a formal apology and reparation by the United States government.

"Some white person." That's interesting, especially considering that German-Americans and Italian-Americans -- let's not overlook -- were also unjustly interned in WWII. Above all, last I checked, the U.S. government wasn't owned by any one white person. Back then or now.

BmwM3Rod wrote:

Why would Japanese citizens need to carry around some bona fide apology to justify anything?

They wouldn't have to if a formal apology by the Japanese government is made. Wouldn't it be great (benri, even) if they could? The ability to do so? Go to the Japanese government webpage, print out a copy to give to the naysayers without having to say a word? Whether as accessible as that or a single copy located on the highest mountain, no such document exists is my point -- show it to me if it DOES exist. Where's as much of an apology as (let's mention it because it was brought up) the U.S. government's apology to interned Americans? There is no written document to shut up protestors, these protestors that seem to have enough credibility to complain without a majority being able to credibly retort, you're wrong; Japan has formally apologized."

Look at the duties that members of the UN Security Council must entail. A nation's an apology for acts suffered by those STILL ALIVE before they get a seat on the security council is the right thing to do.

It's a lose-lose situation if they get the seat, because I predict Japan'll suffer credibility problems especially from their neighbors in the region, and if they DON'T get the seat, heh, they'll probably have an inkling of part of the reason why they didn't get it.

Drilling rights, UN applications, whatever �Eisn't Japan itself getting a bit tired of others that it's so easy (and credible) for their neighbors the East Asian region to be able to point at WWII atrocities in their desire to expand? Don't they wanna do something effectively to shut down the naysayers? Don't they have a desire to move on? Why aren't they doing anything to make a definite statement? It only gives a greater sense that a certain pride (you wanna talk "pride"?) is being maintained regarding that atrocious part of their history.

Doesn't Japan want to have a formal apology for the ages; not merely depending on soundbites from the Prime Minister of the moment to do the job? What of a Prime Minister who might decide not to offer WWII apologies during his/her time in office? Can Japan afford to see THAT happen?

P.S. above all, no matter what happens, for ANYONE to get seriously hurt because of these protests is. Just. Sad. It should not be tolerated. I've stated as such earlier on.

[Toranaga]

I find the issue of the interend Japanese in the US interesting, but mainly from this POV: while their families were basically locked up, young men joined the US armed forces. And well, that Japanese-American unit that fought in Europe? Those guys were feared by the Germans lol. I mean, Japanese endurance combined with American logistics... ow... *would so run away*

Though, I think those "arrests" were mainly caused by paranoia (and I think that works well, take the communist hunts later on, or Hoover, McCarthy, etc etc.). I seriously doubt that any of the interned people would have been a threat. The whole intel stuff started when the war was already under way. Also, even if there would have been an infiltration by Axis saboteurs or spies, I seriously doubt that they would have been able to hurt the US industry significantly (have you ever seen the numbers of the output of the US industry during the war? The only thing to sabotage that would have been a few nukes, scary, really).

I'm also going to Yasukini again this year. This time in uniform. SHould be funny. NCO dress uniforms around here are... grey. It's not really field grey, but it looks a lot like it, also the way it's cut hasn't really changed since WW2, only the ranks are different. But basically it looks like a Wehrmacht uniform.

As for the Japanese PM, well... to be honest... the opinions about him from other countries are pretty much... unimportant for him (just like European opinions were during the US elections). He doesn't get votes by Americans or Chinese. When Schüssel became chancellor in Austria the first time, with the help of the FPÖ (a really right winged party), the EU put sanctions on us. Did it bother anyone here? No. Did it bother Schüssel and the FPÖ? Nope. Schüssel is still chancellor, the FPÖ is also still in the government, the sanctions are gone. So much for that.

Basically I'm for a big Japanese apology for the simple reason that I think it's unfair that we always grovel and they don't (at least once). Either Japan does an apology in the style of Willy Brandt, or our politicians grow some spine and stop guilt-tripping us (and people wonder why right wing parties like the FPÖ have been so successful in the past few years).


Oh yes, btw... Mazda, Ford and GM are building an motor factory in Nanking...

[BmwM3Rod]

The Man

You say Japanese americans were given a formal apology. Yeah...47 years later when over half of those in those camps died between the end of WWII and up to 1988. And as far as compensation...it was $20,000 to each person. Do you know how much the Japanese americans really lost? That $20,000 was the equivalent of about 10 cents to the dollar of what they lost. But hey...it's better than nothing and better late than never. None of my relatives harp over it. They have all just moved on.

And you now continue to accuse the Japanese government for never giving a formal apology when I showed it right to you. Do I need to provide the hotlinks again?

The problem for you and others IMO is that the Japanese american were able to "accept" this formal apology. Some Chinese and Koreans and others do NOT accept Japan's apology.

So you're trying to tell me if it was written or engraved on a stone that would solve the problem? Please. No way. Those who harbor hatred will continue to do so. It don't matter what financial aid Japan has given to all those countries. It's those corrupt governments who never pass on that aid to their own people which is the true problem.

I repeat...you cannot deny Japanese prime ministers have apologized in the past. Koizumi has even visited China and South Korea. Koizumi even went to North Korea to smooth things over related to the kidnapped Japanese in which North Korea apologized for. Seems like whenever Korea, China, or any other countries needs financial aid from Japan...yeah...they accept apologies but when the same old political infighting or rights to certain territories occur...they all bring up the wartime past yet again.

And what on earth are you talking about in regards to Japan's eagerness to become a permanent member of the United Nations. Japan is already a member of the United Nations on a rotational basis. Why does China, South Korea, and North Korea have fears over this? Please explain to me.

So far in recent history (last 10 to 30years), we have had Japanese citizens kidnapped by North Korean spies living in Japan, a Chinese nuclear sub in Japan waters, and North Korea shooting a missle over Japan. Okay.....wow....seems like Japan has more to fear from these nations than the other way around right now.

Are you trying to tell me China and Korean and others fear Japan becoming a military threat again? But yeah....nobody complains when Japan sends over it's Japanese troops over to Iraq. Japan doesn't pull out when those terrorists have a Japanese citizen and end up killing him. But Spain and the Phillipines pull out...right?

And as far as drilling rights are concerned....China is trying to expand themselves. Please don't try and distort the picture and say that Japan is the only one trying to expand.

So I repeat...IMO...Japan has "apologized" to all nations for their war time crimes and have paid back more than anyone can imagine with financial aid and technology resources passed on to those countries as well as tons of employment. It was not only said in words but also by action. Japan would not be so willing to lend out aid if not for the past. Even while Japan struggles with their own economic woes...they have still provided aid to all over the world. It's unfortunate others refuse to see this. It's all there for anybody to read in the papers.

And as far as what is occuring in China...it appears you do think it is wrong. I'm glad you think that because it is and China does owe Japan an apology for what has occurred. For them to refuse an apology is wrong IMO.

I'm totally shocked that so many Chinese harbor such hatred in this day and age against Japanese. A real eye opener and saddens me very much.

[niko2x]

BmwM3Rod wrote:

I'm totally shocked that so many Chinese harbor such hatred in this day and age against Japanese. A real eye opener and saddens me very much.

it doesn't surprise me that there are so many. i think a lot of the hatred comes from the parents teaching the hatred to their kids. (a la bmw and I).

altho it doesn't surprise me, it saddens me as well because i would like to teach my kids about their identity/culture someday, both JPN and chinese, without my chn parents making sarcastic remarks about the JPN side.
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[kitakaze]

Some of the things I put on my blog about that:

Quote:

4) The Japanese citizens today are not responsible for the past. They are responsible for the present and the future to make sure that the horrors of WWII do not happen again.

Quote:

1) China is a growing superpower in the world. They need to act like it and not make the mistakes the United States has. They need to set an example of mature and rational leadership in Asia, and the world at large. Letting brainwashed university hooligans beat up Japanese citizens and destroy Japanese investments does not make a good impression. Refer to #4 above.

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-=kitakaze=-

[bmwracer]

niko2x wrote:

it doesn't surprise me that there are so many. i think a lot of the hatred comes from the parents teaching the hatred to their kids. (a la bmw and I).

Right on.


And as I said before, it was the Commies that chased my folks out of China, not the Japanese... Go figure.

[kitakaze]

bmwracer wrote:

Right on. And as I said before, it was the Commies that chased my folks out of China, not the Japanese... Go figure.

I know quite a few Chinese-American families that came to the U.S. during 1949. That begs the question...why didn't they run away when the Japanese invaded?
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-=kitakaze=-

[bmwracer]

kitakaze wrote:

I know quite a few Chinese-American families that came to the U.S. during 1949. That begs the question...why didn't they run away when the Japanese invaded?

Hmm, good question.

Maybe they lived in an area far removed from the main invasion...?

[kitakaze]

bmwracer wrote:

Hmm, good question. Maybe they lived in an area far removed from the main invasion...?

Or maybe it was not wanting to give up against a foriegn threat? Not that you could have a lot of nationalism with Jiang Kai-shek and Mao Zedong stabbing each other in the back during WWII.
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-=kitakaze=-

[niko2x]

kitakaze wrote:

I know quite a few Chinese-American families that came to the U.S. during 1949. That begs the question...why didn't they run away when the Japanese invaded?

me, i don't know, since we came here in '79. i usually steer clear of WWII talk unless i want to risk being in an argument...
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[bmwracer]

kitakaze wrote:

Or maybe it was not wanting to give up against a foriegn threat? Not that you could have a lot of nationalism with Jiang Kai-shek and Mao Zedong stabbing each other in the back during WWII.

Yeah, there wasn't much of a united front there...


Off topic a bit: that must be a variation of the spelling of those names... I've always remembered it to be Chiang Kai-Shek and Mao Tse-Tung...

That always struck me as odd.