Joined: 11 Dec 2003 Posts: 406 Location: ������ Country:
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:40 am Post subject:
loris wrote:
Thanks for all the info, aho ...
My dictionary (Breen's edict) actually shows both kanji spellings, but I unknowingly chose the one with the �� in it because I didn't know any better. I don't know why it has both spellings in there, but I've noticed that a number of words seem to be offered with alternative spellings in edict. It's a little confusing for someone like me that doesn't know much about Japanese.
As an experiment to get a rough idea how popular each spelling is, I entered them into google.co.jp and got:
������ - 49 occurrences
���� - 1,710,000 occurrences
�X�P�x - 937,000 occurrences
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 506 Location: Canada Country:
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:11 am Post subject:
ahochaude wrote:
Okay. Asked the wife from Japan.
She said that "sukebe" is the normal way to spell the term.
The kanji that was produced, ������ is actually a misinterpretation. A mistake in spelling, if you may. Why did it show up on an on line dictionary, I do not know.
Per the Japanese wife, this is the kanji for "sukebe"...... ���� (I'm an illiterate Japanese speaker, btw. which is why I need clarification from the Japanese wife at times)
Hey aho!
I sooooooooooo don't mean to offend you or your wife at all, but the original pronunciation of the word is, in fact, [�����ׂ�].
I think this is a phenomenon that happens with a lot of words.
In manga (and everyday life, for that matter), when people usually use this term, it's usually directed towards someone and when that is done, it's usually said with at lease a small element of surprise.
Now, when things are said with an element of surprise, what happens in Japanese is that the word gets said very fast, shortening vowels, etc.
Examples:
���� [�Ȃ���] goes to --> �����I [�Ȃ���]
�x�� [������] goes to --> �x���I [������]
�ɂ� [������] goes to --> �ɂ��I [������]
Now, I'm not sure if this is exaclty what's happening with the terms in question, but this just shows that vowel deletion is possible.
In the above examples, however, everyone knows that the final �� is dropped to express suddenness, or surprise.
There are examples, though, like the terms in question where people may be forgetting where they actually come from because they are more often seen in their shortened form than in their actual form.
Examples:
�J�b�R���� (kakko ii - "cool" or "good looking") acutally comes from --> �i�D(��)�ǂ� [kakkou (ga) yoi]
�߂�ǂ����� (mendokusai - "pain in the butt" or "troublesome") comes from --> �ʓ|������ [mendou kusai]
The above examples are examples of vowel deletion taking place, and may be closer to the reason why many people think that the two terms in question are the way they are; because they are seen so much that way (and they are not really terms taught in school) that they don't really know their origins.
So, what I'm trying to say, and mighty sloppily, i might add, is that these terms actually come from the following words:
�A�z comes from --> ���� [���ق�]
�X�P�x comes from --> ���� [�����ׂ�]
And, for those non-believers, here are the excerpts from my Kodansha dictionary:
The above says that [����] is how it is said in the Kansai area of Japan, and that the form [������] is how it is said colloquially ("speaking words," or slang).
Well, that was long, but I just had to put in my $0.02.
HTH,
������ _________________
"I like the word 'indolence'. It makes my laziness seem classy."
-Bern Williams
Last edited by kokuou on Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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