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yes, it was fascinating....i was quite enthralled by the tradition and circumstance inherent in the various facets of the geiko culture...the training, the expectations, all the artisans and craftsman that are responsible in contributing to its success...the hairdressers, kimono makers, choreographers, etc.

Yes...there is so much more to the geiko culture and tradition. It's not some Halloween joke where you slap on some white makeup, put some sticks in your hair and walk around like a clown. There is a lot of formality and respect to tradition and culture...not to mention a lot of sacrifice...it's not an easy life, IMO.

that farce, as you mention.....i couldn't bring myself to watch that hollywood crap

After that so-called movie came out, I went to IMDB to check on the reviews and some of the replies were just so pathetic. Wannabee's wanting to know how to become a geisha, where in Japan they could go to become a geisha...some even saying that they "felt they were a geisha" because they owned a "kamona" (actual spelling). I'm thinking, what the...?? :shakehead: They probably owned some silk robe with an embroidered dragon on the back and thought it was a kimono. I've never watched that movie...never will. :shakehead:

you bring up some very pertinent points regarding misconceptions of geisha culture....among the many things i learned that bolsters your argument was in one particular Kyoto geisha district, Shimabara, they had geisha known as "tayu" which were so well educated in Japanese literature and custom they were actually considered equal in status to feudal lords.....

Honto...? There surely must have been at least one or two who may have been highly respected Geisha back then but I didn't know they could actually obtain the same rank as the feudal lords... :shocked:

That pic of just the back of the neck with the elegant white makeup contrasting with the flesh tones is just gorgeous, neh!

Im guaranteed it wont be coming to my horse town. Ill wait for the DVD.

Back in olden days, a long, white, exposed neck was considered beautiful and sexy...made a lot of Japanese men go :nut: :mrgreen:

Yeah, I'll have to wait for the DVD too. :D

...made a lot of Japanese men go :nut: :mrgreen:

To add...sort of like how the men here act when you bring up the subject of Toshi's girl... :beaten:

ganmo wrote:
Yes...there is so much more to the geiko culture and tradition. It's not some Halloween joke where you slap on some white makeup, put some sticks in your hair and walk around like a clown. There is a lot of formality and respect to tradition and culture...not to mention a lot of sacrifice...it's not an easy life, IMO.

absolutely! the devotion and dedication required was keenly communicated in the documentary...they did mention that even after more than a year of apprenticeship some of these women who had even achieved the status of maiko ended up quitting before being elevated to the status of geiko (geisha). taihen sekai mitai yo.

After that so-called movie came out, I went to IMDB to check on the reviews and some of the replies were just so pathetic. Wannabee's wanting to know how to become a geisha, where in Japan they could go to become a geisha...some even saying that they "felt they were a geisha" because they owned a "kamona" (actual spelling). I'm thinking, what the...?? :shakehead: They probably owned some silk robe with an embroidered dragon on the back and thought it was a kimono. I've never watched that movie...never will. :shakehead:

i saw two minutes of the movie...literally, where they showed zhang ziyi wearing BLUE CONTACT LENS no less....i was more excited after taking a crap, to be honest....the execution of the film is a total insult to japanese traditional culture.....

i'm waiting for the day they make a movie about Mao Zedong played by a Taiwanese actor to even the score...and further illustrate the complete ignorance of White Hollywood producers with regard to Asian cultures notwithstanding their access to VAST wealth and ample time needed to research such topics....

Honto...? There surely must have been at least one or two who may have been highly respected Geisha back then but I didn't know they could actually obtain the same rank as the feudal lords... :shocked:

they said back in the day that the Tayu Geisha from Shimabara were so highly regarded they were the only Geisha in all of Kyoto who could decline a request for their company at a banquet (O-zashiki)

Back in olden days, a long, white, exposed neck was considered beautiful and sexy...made a lot of Japanese men go :nut: :mrgreen:

Yeah, I'll have to wait for the DVD too. :D

if it ever comes out on dvd and i get it...i'll burn you a copy.

Tu_triky wrote:

i'm interested to see if it will eventually be released on DVD...the documentary lacked some cohesion as far as the narrative was concerned...but visually it provided a rather intimate look at the lives of these women....it was duly fascinating....after the film was over they actually had one of the proprietresses of an actual Kyoto Ocha-ya (tea house) to answer questions from the audience...it was a rare treat.


i had read about and casually studied the geisha culture previously...but i learned a lot from watching this film.

for one, i never knew there were 5 districts of Geiko in Kyoto...i thought there was only one...Gion...which is the one that ppl tend to hear about most.

what are the four other geiko districts in Kyoto?

did you go to the expo in Beverly Hills?

You mean these?

Tu_triky wrote:to correct my previous statement, although there are five geisha districts, known as hanamachi....they are as follows:

1)Gion Kobu,
2)Gion Higashi,
3)Miyagawa-cho
4)Kamishichiken
5)Pontocho

qilver wrote:

what are the four other geiko districts in Kyoto?

from what i remember and what i've researched the five "hanamachi" or five geiko districts, as i mentioned above are as follows:


1)Gion Kobu,
2)Gion Higashi,
3)Miyagawa-cho
4)Kamishichiken
5)Pontocho

the curious thing is the documentary specifically mentioned that shimabara, kyoto was also a specific district....but perhaps it is subsumed in one of the other districts mentioned above, q.



i didn't go to the japan expo this weekend but i did see the hannari ~ geisha modern documentary at the Laemmle Music Hall theater which is located on Wilshire in Beverly Hills.

Although I'm not posting much in here, I DO wanna say that I am gobbling up the knowledge you're sharing with us. Thanks, Toshi-kun! I've always been interested in the Geisha's role in Japanese culture (as you know from previous convos) and, like many, felt that Memoirs was a huge let down.

But yea, thanks for the semi-lessons! :bow:

if it ever comes out on dvd and i get it...i'll burn you a copy.

triky...thanks for all the info...and thanks very much for the offer!! I'd appreciate that. :victory:

Tu_triky wrote: saw two minutes of the movie...literally, where they showed zhang ziyi wearing BLUE CONTACT LENS no less....i was more excited after taking a crap, to be honest....the execution of the film is a total insult to japanese traditional culture.....

Just a minor correction. The contacts weren't blue, although they might have looked so on screen. They were grey. The main character was supposed to have these unusual greyish eyes. Actually I read the book
Memoirs of a Geisha years ago. I recently caught the movie on TV. The book was a millions times better than the film. The book covered quite a bit of the true education, rigorous preparation and formalities it took to become a geisha.

This is a very interesting discussion. Thank you!

Enna wrote:

Just a minor correction. The contacts weren't blue, although they might have looked so on screen. They were grey. The main character was supposed to have these unusual greyish eyes. Actually I read the book
Memoirs of a Geisha years ago. I recently caught the movie on TV. The book was a millions times better than the film. The book covered quite a bit of the true education, rigorous preparation and formalities it took to become a geisha.

This is a very interesting discussion. Thank you!

thanks for the education...i stand corrected...nonetheless given my academic knowledge of the japanese, their culture, history, AND a basic knowledge of biological genetics...grey, blue, green, or what not...that ish is a total sham

by the way, my ever-respected Enna...even the promotional movie poster of Sayuri has Zhang with what looks like "blue" eyes....just another example of the "wack."


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Tu_triky wrote:

thanks for the education...i stand corrected...nonetheless given my academic knowledge of the japanese, their culture, history, AND a basic knowledge of biological genetics...grey, blue, green, or what not...that ish is a total sham

by the way, my ever-respected Enna...even the promotional movie poster of Sayuri has Zhang with what looks like "blue" eyes....just another example of the "wack."

Yeah I know they didn't quite look grey in the movie. IIRC they were supposed to look like water. There was some symbolism, I forgot what it was. If you get a chance to read the book it is more informative than all that Hollywood weirdness in the movie.

Also ganmo commented on some non-Japanese people who want to become Geishas. Or think that they are Geishas. Well try to remember that "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." They were trying to show their admiration in an overzealous, naive type of way. It reminds me of when I went to Japan and noticed for the first time so many young men trying to dress like rappers. Or wear dreads in their hair. I didn't get it at first, and then I realized that I guess it is just human nature to try to look and act like people that you admire.

Enna wrote:

Yeah I know they didn't quite look grey in the movie. IIRC they were supposed to look like water. There was some symbolism, I forgot what it was. If you get a chance to read the book it is more informative than all that Hollywood weirdness in the movie.

I read the book after I saw the movie, mainly because I was disappointed in the movie and wanted to see what the text version was like. Enna-san is quite right about the book. There is so much more there, and the movie totally blotched it. The book IS recommended.

The symbology behind the grey (blue) eyes is linked to water, or the ocean. Those who had too much water in their souls were said to be quite adaptable, and impossible to contain. No matter where water went, it always found a way out. Hence the metaphor and how the character was "supposed" portray this.

But yea, the contacts in the movie were blue. I hate that. Like, Harry in Harry Potter is supposed to have green eyes, but has blue in the movie. Boo. :grumble: Small details, but fans hold fast by them!

Enna wrote:

Yeah I know they didn't quite look grey in the movie. IIRC they were supposed to look like water. There was some symbolism, I forgot what it was. If you get a chance to read the book it is more informative than all that Hollywood weirdness in the movie.

Also ganmo commented on some non-Japanese people who want to become Geishas. Or think that they are Geishas. Well try to remember that "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." They were trying to show their admiration in an overzealous, naive type of way. It reminds me of when I went to Japan and noticed for the first time so many young men trying to dress like rappers. Or wear dreads in their hair. I didn't get it at first, and then I realized that I guess it is just human nature to try to look and act like people that you admire.

your points are well-conceded....as far those interested in becoming geisha i happened to ask this woman, Kato-san, who was one of the proprietesses filmed in the movie.....i asked what does it normally take to become accepted to become a candidate to enter the geisha culture...she responded that it mostly involves connections where the prospective young woman and her parents are both interviewed before an Oki-ya (a geisha house) considers accepting a young woman for training.

Wynter wrote:

I read the book after I saw the movie, mainly because I was disappointed in the movie and wanted to see what the text version was like. Enna-san is quite right about the book. There is so much more there, and the movie totally blotched it. The book IS recommended.

The symbology behind the grey (blue) eyes is linked to water, or the ocean. Those who had too much water in their souls were said to be quite adaptable, and impossible to contain. No matter where water went, it always found a way out. Hence the metaphor and how the character was "supposed" portray this.

But yea, the contacts in the movie were blue. I hate that. Like, Harry in Harry Potter is supposed to have green eyes, but has blue in the movie. Boo. :grumble: Small details, but fans hold fast by them!

Thanks Wynter for that info. I know, why do the director's mess up the fine points? They matter! I just went to wikipedia.org and they said her eyes were blue-grey. Sorry I stand corrected.

I did find some info on the book's author over at wikipedia that I did not know before:

Controversy
After the Japanese edition of Memoirs of a Geisha was published, Arthur Golden was sued for breach of contract and defamation of character by Mineko Iwasaki, a retired geisha he had interviewed for background information while writing the novel. The plaintiff asserted that Golden had agreed to protect her anonymity, if she told him about her life as a geisha due to the traditional code of silence about their clients. However, Golden listed Iwasaki as a source in his acknowledgements for the novel.

In 2003, Golden's publisher settled with Iwasaki out of court for an undisclosed sum of money.

Iwasaki later went on to write her own autobiography, an account vastly different from Arthur Golden's novel, published as Geisha, A Life in the US and Geisha of Gion in the UK.

Wynter wrote:
The symbology behind the grey (blue) eyes is linked to water, or the ocean. !

i believe you but it's totatlly retarded and beyond the potential realm engendered by the literary convention of "suspension of disbelief." they could have designated something else for such symbolism.....

it's like saying Martin Luther King had blue eyes in a novel for some symbolic purpose....it's absurd and ridiculous.

Tu_triky wrote:

your points are well-conceded....as far those interested in becoming geisha i happened to ask this woman, Kato-san, who was one of the proprietesses filmed in the movie.....i asked what does it normally take to become accepted to become a candidate to enter the geisha culture...she responded that it mostly involves connections where the prospective young woman and her parents are both interviewed before an Oki-ya (a geisha house) considers accepting a young woman for training.

Very interesting stuff Tu! I remember seeing something on TV a few years ago where a film crew followed a couple of Japanese young ladies who were preparing to become geishas. A father of one of the girls disapproved of her choice to become a geisha. I guess she got around the parents interview some kind of way.

Tu_triky wrote: believe you but it's totatlly retarded and beyond the potential realm engendered by the literary convention of "suspension of disbelief." they could have designated something else for such symbolism.....

it's like saying Martin Luther King had blue eyes in a novel for some symbolic purpose....it's absurd and ridiculous.

Yeah I see your point. It was written with a Western audience in mind so they could identify with the color of the eyes.

Enna wrote:

Yeah I see your point. It was written with a Western audience in mind so they could identify with the color of the eyes.

a well minded point....i can comprehend certain alterations in order to adapt a story to Western "tastes"...it's just that, often times, the license that is taken is too much or over the top.

i fully appreciate your argument and say the following merely as an academic counterpoint:

my point being is why does "Occidental" culture have to alter notions of "Oriental" culture in order to enhance its appreciation? in my opinion, it is a sad practice in the West.

Tu_triky wrote:

a well minded point....i can comprehend certain alterations in order to adapt a story to Western "tastes"...it's just that, often times, the license that is taken is too much or over the top.

i fully appreciate your argument and say the following merely as an academic counterpoint:

my point being is why does "Occidental" culture have to alter notions of "Oriental" culture in order to enhance its appreciation? in my opinion, it is a sad practice in the West.

I agree, a sad practice indeed. :shakehead:

I forgot to say...That was great that you had a chance to ask questions after the seeing the movie. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

Enna wrote:


I agree, a sad practice indeed. :shakehead:

yeah, indeed...it's somewhat perplexing in that with regard to such a movie hollywood can seek out the most qualified experts with regard to costume design and it get it absolutely spot on with regard to the period garb....yet when it comes to the more important cultural semantics....they can blow it so eggregiously.

I forgot to say...That was great that you had a chance to ask questions after the seeing the movie. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

yeah it was special opportunity to ask questions....i asked one myself and learned from the listening to the answers given in response to other audience members' questions.

Wynter wrote: Toshi-kun! .................
thanks for the semi-lessons! :bow:

:hehe: :hehe:

Lessons???

from Toshi-kun???? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

C'mon, Toshi!! C'mon!!

(Love the new sig, Tu!!)