Memoirs of a Geisha Movie: No Japanese Actresses

bmwracer wrote:
I don't think that's the point. If the role calls for a certain ethnicity, you'd normally (logically?) start looking at actors of that ethnicity... I just can't imagine that they couldn't find three Japanese actresses to fill those three roles... :shakehead:

Then we should logically (?) be angry at about 98% of the films we see in our movie theatres. Like I said in my last post, no-name actresses don't get roles. Why does Russel Crowe--an Australian, and most likely not an Italian--play an ancient Romanesque fighter in Gladiator? So until there are more Japanese actresses that catch the eye of American producers, or ethnically Japanese women (though I don't think that should give someone first dibs to a role if they can't act their way out of a box) that are in the American movie industry, we can't really complain about what they chose.

They're going for money, not for 100% accuracy. So I don't think that is entirely illogical. Zhang Ziyi is popular not only in America right now, but Asia as well. Meaning that the popularity of this movie will double, if not triple, because of the names in it.

How many people paid to see Brad Pitt play Achilles in "Troy"??? Tons, I bet. And no one was the more angry about the ethnicity boundaries being crossed, I am sure, for they realized they had to let it go because--well, he's an actor, and he is paid to CONVINCE US of his CHARACTER.

Now having said that, I do firmly believe that if there were some famous Japanese movies out in America right now that had caught the American audiences attention like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or HERO, I'm sure the filmmakers would've glanced at Japan's stock of actresses. However, seeing as most Japanese people don't even want to watch Japanese movies, it's a stretch. There's also the fact that they want to do the movie in English, I am sure. Though, last time I checked, Zhang Ziyi had to have Jackie Chan translate for her because she couldn't speak a lick of English. I also don't believe Zhang Ziyi has any of the many ethnic features seen in many Japanese...but here's more luck to 'em if she can pull it off!

yume wrote:Then we should logically (?) be angry at about 98% of the films we see in our movie theatres.

I understand your point, but I think it's more significant when you're talking about minorities, particularly Asians in Hollywood...

yume wrote:
How many people paid to see Brad Pitt play Achilles in "Troy"??? Tons, I bet. And no one was the more angry about the ethnicity boundaries being crossed, I am sure, for they realized they had to let it go because--well, he's an actor, and he is paid to CONVINCE US of his CHARACTER.

I know I didn't pay to see Brad Pitt buck naked. hahah...man i hated that movie. Anyways, yume, you're pretty much right I don't believe the production company really intended to inflict discrimination on others. Like it has been said earlier, it's somewhat of a marketing technique. Most companies do whatever it takes to get as many people to watch their movie by selecting certain actors and actresses for certain roles that some people don't agree with. I don't think you should boycott the movie simply because it does not contain the actors or actresses that you want. I mean, I disagree with Miramax putting subtitles on great movies like Shaolin Soccer, but it actually attracts more people to the theater because according to a survey, a majority wanted dubbed movies rather than subtitles. There's no reason to make a big deal out of it, to admit I was somewhat disappointed that they cast those people, but you later realize that this is what the production company believes will attract fans to theater seats. My simple message is that if it interests you, go watch it because the movie companies are there to entertain us. If you don't think Zhang Ziyi, Michelle Yeoh, Gong Li and other fine actors and actresses would entertain you, then don't watch it.

I have to agree with Geezer and Yume.

While it would be nice if Japanese stars got the parts, it's all about making money.

In addition, the point Geezer made is ESPECIALLY relevant since it's very DIFFICULT to get Japanese entertainment (especially TV) here in the US. The Japanese industry doesn't market to the US and most stuff is only available region 2 without subtitles. Furthermore, Fuji won't even allow subtitles.

If Japanese actors/actresses want to start getting American movie roles, the pressure is on the Japanese entertainment industry to start promoting Japanese film/tv (and talent) here in the US. The Chinese/Hong Kong industry does a much BETTER job at it..and it pays off for Chinese talent when it comes to hiring for movies.

Despite constantly being trained to think otherwise, the fact is that different races, as a majority, do exhibit different features that are distinct. It's not 100%, but I've been able to pick out a Chinese person from a Japanese person from a Korean person. I can tell if a Caucasian is from the US, or Europe. And to a much lesser degree, from different European countries. It's not accurate, but there is something there.

With movies and television, it's not so bad with contemporary stuff that would be predominantly English. But when we get into different languages, it's time to cringe. There's plenty of Japanese actresses. Why not just use them?

Kijinnmaru wrote:There's plenty of Japanese actresses. Why not just use them?

It appears that there aren't any marketable ones from Hollywood's standpoint. :(

Telling a US Caucasian from a "European" Caucasian (as they're all from the same stock) must be an amazing talent based on clothing, attitude and assumptions we've made about the BEHAVIOR of those people--not their "racial characteristics."

While I do agree to the fact that there are facial differences in the various parts of this globe, the Japanese face is not so different from the Korean face many a time due to the connected roots of the two nations. While there are many people who are Korean who can pass quite eligibly for Japanese and vice versa, there is a distinct difference between those two that I do recognize--but I will not accept anyone's claims that every single person can be categorized based on their looks because there are anomalies that cannot be accounted for that make us all what we are--unique.

As to the minority remark of Geezer, I agree, there is a difference--had this movie specifically chosen to cast all Chinese people in a Japanese movie that was in THE JAPANESE LANGUAGE, I'd be highly skeptical of the filmmaking crew. However, the film is intended for an English-speaking audience--more specifically, an American one. In any case, did we read the rosters for who went to auditions or what have you for the film? If not, we cannot be 100% assured that Japanese actresses as well were given try-outs or offered the parts and turned down because they lacked appeal as the character or the English-speaking ability. I am quite sure that Koyuki was probably thought of, but her English isn't good enough to market an English audience--yet. For all these reasons, I would see your point more, but I'm finding hard to believe that this was some DIRECT result of "All Asians Look Alike" mentality. Bet your bottom dollar if Koyuki were a few years younger and spoke English, SHE'D be Sayuri because American audiences reacted well to her in The Last Samurai. It's about money.

Last note to Kijinnmaru: Besides, most of these "Caucasian/European" U.S. stars (I guess that depends if you consider Palestine/Israel, Lebanon etc. "Europe" or not) who claim to be of European descent are actually Jewish and change their names into "White Standard" stage names simply because they can pass for "European" based on their appearance and are encouraged to drop their Jewish name for a more appealing one--though about 100 years ago, they would've been highly unlikely to pass. Moreover, your "can tell...lesser degree" remark--so why should it be any different for East Asians? Despite Japanese imperical thought that Japanese are an "unmixed, pure race," there are documents tracing them to Korean roots, and as for Koreans, with a Mongolian origin accounted for--why is that we still get so touchy about people "looking alike" when it's not meant in a racist context? That said, I think we all know Zhang Ziyi doesn't look Japanese--but she has more acting ability than a lot of the famous Japanese actresses (American filmmakers won't bet on non-famous Japanese, I am sure) in her left pinky finger, so there ya go.

well i'm a newbie in the forums here and i've just read this book a few days back...i was wondering where would they find someone without an arm to play nobu-san? lol.. ^.^"

yume wrote:
Last note to Kijinnmaru: Besides, most of these "Caucasian/European" U.S. stars (I guess that depends if you consider Palestine/Israel, Lebanon etc. "Europe" or not) who claim to be of European descent are actually Jewish and change their names into "White Standard" stage names simply because they can pass for "European" based on their appearance and are encouraged to drop their Jewish name for a more appealing one--though about 100 years ago, they would've been highly unlikely to pass. Moreover, your "can tell...lesser degree" remark--so why should it be any different for East Asians? Despite Japanese imperical thought that Japanese are an "unmixed, pure race," there are documents tracing them to Korean roots, and as for Koreans, with a Mongolian origin accounted for--why is that we still get so touchy about people "looking alike" when it's not meant in a racist context? That said, I think we all know Zhang Ziyi doesn't look Japanese--but she has more acting ability than a lot of the famous Japanese actresses (American filmmakers won't bet on non-famous Japanese, I am sure) in her left pinky finger, so there ya go.

I'm actually referring to the regular folks, and answering Geezer's question on it. When I say US, I mean I can tell if they were born and raised in the US, as opposed to Europe. Like I said, it's not an exact thing. To be honest, it doesn't really bother me at all when it comes to film because it's all about suspension of disbelief. It's when the "wrong" race thing has an effect on the film. I take it this movie will at least be partly in Japanese. The first time these actresses speak will probably knock us right out of that suspension.

I've been unimpressed by Zhang Ziyi's acting except for her first role in The Road Home. Crouching Tiger was a complete waste of her acting, and Hero was just Crouching Tiger "light" for her. Modern technology makes armless characters a non-issue. Probably will wrap the arm in green screen and digitally remove it.

And welcome to the board, ayanechan!

I'm just curious. How was this book taken in Japan? Was it liked or hated? I thought I rememberd it wasn't liked very much in Japan...but I can't remember now. If it wasn't received very well..it might also mean that no Japanese actresses wanted the part (but of course that's purely speculation).

Kijinnmaru wrote:Despite constantly being trained to think otherwise, the fact is that different races, as a majority, do exhibit different features that are distinct. It's not 100%, but I've been able to pick out a Chinese person from a Japanese person from a Korean person. I can tell if a Caucasian is from the US, or Europe. And to a much lesser degree, from different European countries. It's not accurate, but there is something there.

You can tell if a Caucasian is from the US or Europe? Just by looking at their faces? Without hearing them talk. Without knowing their names? Without them wearing some identifiable piece of clothing?

That's impressive. Because I sure can't.

I make assumptions sometimes. As I do with Asians. There are times when I'm sure that a person "looks" Japanese, or Chinese. But I've been wrong a lot.

A note on casting:

As I said, I'm not upset that Chinese actresses were cast. But I would have preferred to see Joan Chen and Bai Ling as the two older ladies.

In my opinion, both are better actresses, both are better looking, and both have better English language skills.

Then again, Bill Murray was supposed to play Hoffman's brother in "Rain Man". The part was written for him. But the studio went with Tom Cruise. I wonder why?

A note on Female Japanese Movie Stars:

I can't think of one. I can think of lots of Japanese actresses who could kick ass in these parts. But I can't think of a single Female Japanese Movie Star.


BMW

I'm not disagreeing with you completely. We're just looking at the issue from different povs. You from the point of social activism.

Me, because I've been a Theater Rat all my life, from the point of view of the actor.

Actors want to play everything and everyone. That's what the profession is. Pretending to be someone or something you're not.

Do you remember the casting scene from "A Midsummer-Night's Dream"? Act I Scene II. Where Quince is trying to assign the parts of the play, and Bottom constantly interrupts, explaining how he could play each part. In the end, Bottom thinks he should play all the parts.

In a nutshell, (a very funny nutshell) that's Shakespeare explaining to the world what actors are really like.

I know it's important that minorities at least get a serious chance to audition. To be considered for the parts in different movies.

But in the end, I don't really care about the ethnicity of an actor in an individual role. I want to see James Earl Jones in "Lear". I wish I could have seen a young James Shigita playing "Hamlet". And I'd fly to Japan to get a chance to see Tomoko Yamaguchi play Viola/Sebastian in "Twelfth Night".

Geezer,
Like I said, it's not a precise thing. But there is a noticeable "look" with most people that were born and raised in the US or Europe. Has to do with eyes, bone structure of the skull, hair, and even the "glow" of their eyes. It's little things.

Maybe I've just been stuck on observation mode for too long. :bonk:

Kijinnmaru wrote:Maybe I've just been stuck on observation mode for too long. :bonk:

Is it all those years working for the State Department?? :rolleyes: :hehe:

Geezer wrote:I'm not disagreeing with you completely. We're just looking at the issue from different povs. You from the point of social activism.

Should I start singing "We Shall Overcome?"


I guess that comes from growing up in the turbulent 60's and 70's.

as an Asian(and i do fill in Chinese when asked for my race in forms), i have difficulty telling a Korean, Japanese, and Chinese apart too. unless they speak, there are times i mistake one for another.

i guess the main purpose of making this film is to earn some $$, so casting better-known movie actresses in the roles will help to draw in the crowds.

Maggie Cheung came to mind for the role Michelle Yeoh is taking, but i'll say since Maggie is not Japanese too, it may cause a stir again... :sweat: dun get me wrong, Michelle is a fantastic actress!

it will be interesting to watch Zhang Ziyi and Gong Li in rival roles...something i've been waiting for for some time. and Zhang's getting roles from Japan, what with Operetta Tanuki Goten under her belt as well.

Don't think that having the film which is essentially about Japanese "culture" in English would get the kind of feeling across. :bonk: :banghead: :shakehead:
I think it may be better to use someone Asian & fluent in Japanese to star the movie in Japanese language...

FYI...for those who are interested. Here is an online test to see how well you can tell the difference between Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. This test has been around for a few years now so some, or all, of you may have even taken this before.

http://www.alllooksame.com/

I don't have a problem with non-Japanese playing in the movie ... after all, the book was written by an American, Arthur Golden :)

Mr. Golden did do a lot of research to write the story, however, one of the geishas he interviewed, Mineko Iwasaki, disagreed with his portrayal:

http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/japano/0111/011130ex-geisha.html

P.S. Interesting trivia: Mineko Iwasaki was Shintaro Katsu's (of Zatoichi) lover for a number of years.

gregsan wrote:FYI...for those who are interested. Here is an online test to see how well you can tell the difference between Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans. This test has been around for a few years now so some, or all, of you may have even taken this before.

http://www.alllooksame.com/

Oh yeah, we had a thread like that about last year or so.
Most of the older users have taken the test already.
I'm not quite sure of the newbies though, since the thread had been pushed back so many pages already.
For comments on the test, please post them in this thread.
http://jdorama.com/viewtopic.2052.0.htm
Thanks.

On a lighter note, has anyone read the book yet? I'll probably end up getting it after I read my Murakami book, but I want to know what you guys think. Ironically, thing is that the local bookstore ran out of copies of this book for some reason when I went looking for it the other day when I saw this thread. :hehe: