Kijinnmaru

It's your typical "think tank-guys with time and money"

That's one way to describe them.

Except for the "typical" part.

What I think isn't so typical about PNAC is the names of the guys who worked on, contributed to, and signed PNAC.

Some are pretty well known:

Dick Cheney

Don Rumsfeld

Paul Wolfowitz

Jeb Bush

Some live further in the background:

Elliott Abrams - Remember him? Convicted of lying to Congress twice in the Iran Contra affair, Pardoned by Bush I, and appointed to the National Security Staff by Bush II.

I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby. Assistant to the President, and Chief of Staff for the Vice President.

Check all the names of the folks who worked on this. They're all very googlable.

My point? My point is that your typical Think tank guys have a bias, or a leaning... and some even have an influence over an administration.

But in this case... the guys who put PNAC together as a mission statement... are the administration.

gregsan wrote:

Fortunately for you French...we didn't have that same opinion for YOUR country during WW2. We didn't just stand by and say the Germans are killing the French? Ahh...who cares...it's none of our concern, let them do what they want.. Maybe we should have been more "laissez faire"?!

What you are saying is the biggest mistake ever.

There's nothing to compare between WWII and IRAK.

Now I try to understand why russians learn at schools, why their are unfair wars and fairs wars, despite the fact that a war can't be fair.

Xavio

Why do people in America dislike the French... make fun of the French... blame things on the French?

In a large part, because there isn't a large enough French-American population to stand up and say; "Hey! Stop flapping your gums, you feckless momes!"

African Americans started standing up for themselves and black jokes all but disappeared from "polite society".

Irish Americans shouted back.

Polish Americans said, hey, knock off the polack jokes.

Asian Americans not only started shouting, they started bringing people to court .

But with the French... people think they can get away with it.

It's the French, Fat People and smokers. The last three groups Americans can mindlessly insult without fear.

Geezer wrote:

Xavio Why do people in America dislike the French... make fun of the French... blame things on the French? In a large part, because there isn't a large enough French-American population to stand up and say; "Hey! Stop flapping your gums, you feckless momes!" African Americans started standing up for themselves and black jokes all but disappeared from "polite society". Irish Americans shouted back. Polish Americans said, hey, knock off the polack jokes. Asian Americans not only started shouting, they started bringing people to court . But with the French... people think they can get away with it. It's the French, Fat People and smokers. The last three groups Americans can mindlessly insult without fear.

It's the French, Fat People and smokers. The last three groups Americans can mindlessly insult without fear.[/quote]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head Geezer.

As long as I can remember people have said the French are rude to everyone non French, and That they show no appreciation for what was done for them in WWII.

No one has stood up and said that's not true or get over WWII is the past lets live in the present and work on the future. As long as no one stands up and says enough things will continue on this pace.
_________________

From the Simpsons
Mr. Burns: I could crush him like an ant. But it would be too easy. No, revenge is a dish best served cold. I'll bide my time until ... Oh, what the hell. I'll just crush him like an ant.

Geezer wrote:

"Hey! Stop flapping your gums, you feckless momes!"

Too funny.

Geezer wrote:

Xavio Why do people in America dislike the French... make fun of the French... blame things on the French? In a large part, because there isn't a large enough French-American population to stand up and say; "Hey! Stop flapping your gums, you feckless momes!" African Americans started standing up for themselves and black jokes all but disappeared from "polite society". Irish Americans shouted back. Polish Americans said, hey, knock off the polack jokes. Asian Americans not only started shouting, they started bringing people to court . But with the French... people think they can get away with it. It's the French, Fat People and smokers. The last three groups Americans can mindlessly insult without fear.

Because in America, there are ideas on french. And we have ideas on American too, fat people, fucking food...
And it's like with the english.
The real reason why we hate each other, is :
I hate you because you hate me.

In france it's the same, and i think it's a shame.
For example this morning, my electronic teacher said something like : fucking american with their 110V ( we work on 220 VOLT ). It's a shame.

You are talking about history ? Do you think we have to do what we want us to do because you helped us at the war ? Man it was 60 years ago, and you really offense french people when you say that we are free only because of you. Some people of my family died when they tried to resist to the germans.
Do you know why russians hate americans ? Because there are at least 10 times more russians people who died in WWII to attack germany on the east side, and americans didn't really help them. For us Americans came at the end of the war, and they had all the honors. Then they could rule the world because it was the only country in the world who had money.

And then why are you talking about past ? I could talk about your independance when french help Americans to fight the english, but it has no sense.

And compare WWII to Irak is a big mistake !

Now we have to remember in WWII, remember to people who died, not to do such things in the future, but WWII is over !

@doramafan : again, we can't forget what USA did for US in WWII, but you have to know that USA were not the only one in WWII.
Then again, it's an idea that french are rude to every non french people. But you'll alaways think that. French are not rude except to Americans and english ; it's the only 2 country that we hate. ( we don't like some arabic countries like Irak, but it's different ).
For example, try to come in France. You'll be welcomed, but you probably heard that bush and his politic are bit shits.

Geezer wrote:

Xavio Why do people in America dislike the French... make fun of the French... blame things on the French? In a large part, because there isn't a large enough French-American population to stand up and say; "Hey! Stop flapping your gums, you feckless momes!" African Americans started standing up for themselves and black jokes all but disappeared from "polite society". Irish Americans shouted back. Polish Americans said, hey, knock off the polack jokes. Asian Americans not only started shouting, they started bringing people to court . But with the French... people think they can get away with it. It's the French, Fat People and smokers. The last three groups Americans can mindlessly insult without fear.

It's because of comments like Xavio's: "It means that we let people doing what they want in their country... KILLING EACH OTHER (my italics) etc."

This philosophy goes against the ideals of most (?) Americans. Does it not?!! No body has a problem with that statement?!!

Xavio wrote:

@doramafan : again, we can't forget what USA did for US in WWII, but you have to know that USA were not the only one in WWII. Then again, it's an idea that french are rude to every non french people. But you'll alaways think that. French are not rude except to Americans and english ; it's the only 2 country that we hate. ( we don't like some arabic countries like Irak, but it's different ). For example, try to come in France. You'll be welcomed, but you probably heard that bush and his politic are bit shits.

I have not been to France but I dated a girl from France, and had several French friends. I have nothing against the French. My comment was meant to say that we should not judge people of France based on WWII. Same as we should not judge the Japanese or Germans. Most of the people responsible for the war are dead. I think people should live for today and base their judgements off of what is going on today.

I wish more French would visit the U.S. so they could see we are not bad people, and more Americans would visit France so we cuold learn more about French culture. Then we can all be Freinds again. Well some ignorant people will always hate other just because but most of us can like each other again I hope.
_________________

From the Simpsons
Mr. Burns: I could crush him like an ant. But it would be too easy. No, revenge is a dish best served cold. I'll bide my time until ... Oh, what the hell. I'll just crush him like an ant.

gregsan wrote:

It's because of comments like Xavio's: "It means that we let people doing what they want in their country... KILLING EACH OTHER (my italics) etc."

Perhaps he was being ironic.

The French have sent troops to African nations a number of times on humanitarian missions and to intervene when rebels are slaughtering people.

1978 in Zaire.
2003 Congo.
2003 Ivory Coast
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,64015,00.html
"Waving U.S. flags and shouting 'Vive la France!," American schoolchildren escaped a rebel-held Ivory Coast city under siege Wednesday, as U.S. special forces and French troops moved in to rescue Westerners..."

Geezer wrote:

Kijinnmaru It's your typical "think tank-guys with time and money" That's one way to describe them. Except for the "typical" part. What I think isn't so typical about PNAC is the names of the guys who worked on, contributed to, and signed PNAC. Some are pretty well known: Dick Cheney Don Rumsfeld Paul Wolfowitz Jeb Bush Some live further in the background: Elliott Abrams - Remember him? Convicted of lying to Congress twice in the Iran Contra affair, Pardoned by Bush I, and appointed to the National Security Staff by Bush II. I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby. Assistant to the President, and Chief of Staff for the Vice President. Check all the names of the folks who worked on this. They're all very googlable. My point? My point is that your typical Think tank guys have a bias, or a leaning... and some even have an influence over an administration. But in this case... the guys who put PNAC together as a mission statement... are the administration.

It's still think-tank material. If you read it, it's nothing more than assessment of the then-current readiness of America. Some of it has been put in effect, other parts have gone the opposite by the same people who wrote it. Big whoop. If you think that this was some kind of blueprint to twist the threads of fate in the world, then you need to step back into the real world. This was nothing more than an assessment and suggestion piece. Some parts right, some parts wrong. Much of it is so plain obvious you wonder why they spent the thousands of dollars researching it. Reports like these are thrown out by partisan hacks to stir up the people who don't do any thinking for themselves, much less read it and see the obvious.

Quote:

Do you know why russians hate americans ? Because there are at least 10 times more russians people who died in WWII to attack germany on the east side, and americans didn't really help them. For us Americans came at the end of the war, and they had all the honors. Then they could rule the world because it was the only country in the world who had money. And then why are you talking about past ? I could talk about your independance when french help Americans to fight the english, but it has no sense.

You are aware that the French did not enter the war, nor assist the Americans, until after the Battle of Saratoga, the key British defeat that shaped the outcome of the war? In other words, the French waited till they knew the war could be won before they decided to help.

End of World War 2? I guess you forgot about the fighting in Africa, or Italy, or other parts of Europe before 1944. Tunisia sound familiar? How about Sicily? Or Crete? Italy? Or all the support given to the British, French, and Russians before America even entered the war. And I guess you've forgotten about the billions poured into the European countries after the war to rebuild your shattered nations. Heard about the Marshall plan?

vibius wrote:

Perhaps he was being ironic. The French have sent troops to African nations a number of times on humanitarian missions and to intervene when rebels are slaughtering people. 1978 in Zaire. 2003 Congo. 2003 Ivory Coast http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,64015,00.html "Waving U.S. flags and shouting 'Vive la France!," American schoolchildren escaped a rebel-held Ivory Coast city under siege Wednesday, as U.S. special forces and French troops moved in to rescue Westerners..."

His statement didn't sound ironic in the slightest. It might be that it doesn't accurately reflect French policy...but I think many Americans think the French, and other European countries...not just France, think this way. It sounded to me like Xavio ALSO does feel this way.

Maybe we should leave the topic of France and try to stay on the topic of the American election.

vibius wrote:

Maybe we should leave the topic of France and try to stay on the topic of the American election.

Easier said than done...since this election, by far, is focused on American foreign policy.

FINAL PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE FOR 2004 ELECTION ABOUT TO START, RIGHT NOW (look at time stamp, do ya'll's conversions as needed), LIVE, go watch or go listen.

Topic: domestic issues.
2 min, 1 min. rebuttal, moderator has discretion to extend.
Each candidate is allowed a 2 minute closing statement at the conclusion of the debate.

Doramafan113 wrote:

I have not been to France but I dated a girl from France....

Shhhh! Does your wife know?

Doramafan113 -> <- Wifey


L'amour!
-PCM

vibius wrote:

Maybe we should leave the topic of France and try to stay on the topic of the American election.

This thread should not be diverted strictly into talks about France and US.
This thread should be kept on talk on the upcoming presidential election as much as possible. Although a sensitive subject, political debates are fine, but when we start getting into debates and criticizing other countries and whatnot, then it becomes offensive and that is a no-no. I don't want this thread to be a cause of tension between users on this board.
If this thread gets off topic and gets out of control, I will lock it, and delete ALL future political threads.
We are not on this board to hate one another or purposely create debates and arguements with one another. This board is one of the most peaceful ones you'll find out there. Let's do our part to keep it that way!
I am not trying to deny anyone of freedom of speech, but at the same time, I don't want anyone to hate or dislike another just by the talks from this thread, or threads of the like. Especially if the topic goes in a different direction than it was intended to and gets personal.
If we can't have a friendly debate, then might as well not have one at all.
Thanks for understanding.

gregsan wrote:

Easier said than done...since this election, by far, is focused on American foreign policy.

gregsan, as much as I agree with you on many, or if not on all things, this is definately a tough call.
This election IS focused a lot on foreign policy, but as much as possible, I'd like it to be kept clean in this forum. When we start getting into talks about countries that other users of this board live in, things can get pretty personal and ugly. I'm afraid to say that there is a gray line here. But my main concern is that users can leave this thread and still be friends.
I guess the moment I see talks from this thread carrying over to other threads, I will lock this thread and PM the involved users for possible solutions.

And to other users, I admit I was wrong for the (Kerry) name calling incident.
I apologize.
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gregsan wrote:

His statement didn't sound ironic in the slightest. It might be that it doesn't accurately reflect French policy...but I think many Americans think the French, and other European countries...not just France, think this way. It sounded to me like Xavio ALSO does feel this way.

It was Ironic...

hey xavio, it seems in france they know more about u.s. politics than a lot of americans do. do they broadcast the u.s. presidential candidates there?
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niko2x wrote:

hey xavio, it seems in france they know more about u.s. politics than a lot of americans do. do they broadcast the u.s. presidential candidates there?

We can see at night, Bush vs Kerry, there are some news on TV, and debate bush/kerry is translated on some sewspaper.

It's quite important for US that Bush lose.

@ Kijinnmaru : I did a mistake, sorry. I said for us, instead of for them, i was talking about the russians. I don't want to talk about WWII, it's not so easy...

pcmodem wrote:

Shhhh! Does your wife know? Doramafan113 -> <- Wifey L'amour! -PCM

Ha ha ha. No that was many years ago about 8 or 9 years ago now. Although she did find photo's in the photo album and gave me the stink eye.
_________________

From the Simpsons
Mr. Burns: I could crush him like an ant. But it would be too easy. No, revenge is a dish best served cold. I'll bide my time until ... Oh, what the hell. I'll just crush him like an ant.