you can tell that i'm out of it. i didn't even hear about this guy until just a few days ago. it's too bad he lost, but i think the 'conspiracy' that Impression15 talks about is like that movie ... was it 'quiz show' or something?
Non-Japanese TV Shows (broadcast, cable, etc.)
Started by kndy-nt2099 · 13 May 2004 · 1,081 replies
General Discussion
Not to worry about Ken: he'll more than likely be back for the Tournament of Champions... And he'll be the odds on favorite. :)
Did anyone watch this PBS program last night about the war vs. Japan?
Fascinating stuff.
Here's the link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pacific/index.html
Fascinating stuff.
Here's the link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pacific/index.html
Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to see this :(. It looked very interesting though. What did you think of it?
Excerpt from one of the discussion forums:
"Knowing what we do now, it is very chilling to read the transcript of a conversation on August 13, 1945, between one of General Marshall's staff officers and a key official of the Manhattan Project. This conversation occurred via a telephone call Marshall ordered to explore the use of the remaining production of atomic bombs in what we would now call "tactical use" to support an invasion of Japan. The discussion does not begin to suggest any real grasp of the radiation danger to U.S. troops. The big hazard that is discussed is what happens if an atomic bomb is dropped and it does not explode."
According to the show last night, the U.S. had planned to build up to seven (!) atomic bombs and use them as tactical weapons in a planned invasion of Kyushu...
Unbelievable. :sweat: :shakehead:
"Knowing what we do now, it is very chilling to read the transcript of a conversation on August 13, 1945, between one of General Marshall's staff officers and a key official of the Manhattan Project. This conversation occurred via a telephone call Marshall ordered to explore the use of the remaining production of atomic bombs in what we would now call "tactical use" to support an invasion of Japan. The discussion does not begin to suggest any real grasp of the radiation danger to U.S. troops. The big hazard that is discussed is what happens if an atomic bomb is dropped and it does not explode."
According to the show last night, the U.S. had planned to build up to seven (!) atomic bombs and use them as tactical weapons in a planned invasion of Kyushu...
Unbelievable. :sweat: :shakehead:
Well, this is coming from the same military that threw a party after the firebombing of Tokyo. Yeah, kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people and then party and have lots of beer. That's taking the taking of human life seriously.
A good book to read is War Without Mercy, by John Dower. It's a good study on the bruality of the Pacific War on both sides.
A good book to read is War Without Mercy, by John Dower. It's a good study on the bruality of the Pacific War on both sides.
kitakaze wrote:Well, this is coming from the same military that threw a party after the firebombing of Tokyo. Yeah, kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people and then party and have lots of beer. That's taking the taking of human life seriously.
That's nuts. You should check out the link to that site... The human toll is staggering.
A good book to read is War Without Mercy, by John Dower. It's a good study on the bruality of the Pacific War on both sides.
Okay, another book for my wish list... :)
So what period of time does your expertise cover in regards to Japan?
bmwracer wrote:
Okay, another book for my wish list... :)
So what period of time does your expertise cover in regards to Japan?
Hmmm...I'd say women's history during the Meiji and Taisho era is my expertise.
After that my best general knowledge is, in descending order: Meiji & Taisho (1868-1926), post-war Japan, Heian (794-1185), and sengoku jidai.
kitakaze wrote:Hmmm...I'd say women's history during the Meiji and Taisho era is my expertise.
After that my best general knowledge is, in descending order: Meiji & Taisho (1868-1926), post-war Japan, Heian (794-1185), and sengoku jidai.
Hmm, that's interesting: you skipped Japan from 1927-1945... Any particular reason? Is it because that period just overdone/overanalyzed?
bmwracer wrote:
Hmm, that's interesting: you skipped Japan from 1927-1945... Any particular reason? Is it because that period just overdone/overanalyzed?
I know about that area...but it's not my favorite. There's a lot of emotionalism, jingoism, and murky water there. Only a few reasonable scholars do a good job about it, like John Dower. If you watch the History Channel, they make it seem like that's the only period of Japanese history.
kitakaze wrote:If you watch the History Channel, they make it seem like that's the only period of Japanese history.
Well, it's the only one that affects the United States..... :rolleyes:
bmwracer wrote:
Well, it's the only one that affects the United States..... :rolleyes:
Not quite.
There was an interesting point in the program on PBS about Sugihara.
At the beginning of the Japanese Russian war, Japan couldn't find financing anywhere. They sent bankers and diplomats all over the world trying to find someone who would bankroll them.
They found a guy named Jacob H. Schiff, the senior partner of a Wall Street firm called Kuhn, Loeb & Co.
Schiff, an American Jew, was more than a little ticked off that there were still pograms going on in Russian at the turn of the 20th century. So he decided to bankroll the whole freakin' Japanese war effort.
And I'm talking to the tune of 200 mil at the turn of the century.
His one condition... Beat the hell out of the Russians.
The Japanese won. Schiff made back his investment and then some.
And that one investment, the first time a Wall Street firm had backed an international war, is credited with having shifted the center of international finance from the City in London, to Wall Street.
kitakaze wrote:Well, this is coming from the same military that threw a party after the firebombing of Tokyo. Yeah, kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people and then party and have lots of beer. That's taking the taking of human life seriously.
Sigh and excuse me, but, Imperial Japan during that era weren't exactly humanitarians. Party and lots of beer? Was the Japanese Imperial army crying every day during their occupation in Manchuria? And I bet those female slaves that WWII Japanese soldiers enjoyed were no fun either.
P.S. anybody catch the "Massie Case" story on that same PBS American Experience program? Turning point in the history of Hawaii.
The Man wrote:
Sigh and excuse me, but, Imperial Japan during that era weren't exactly humanitarians. Party and lots of beer? Was the Japanese Imperial army crying every day during their occupation in Manchuria? And I bet those female slaves that WWII Japanese soldiers enjoyed were no fun either.
The Japanese Imperial Army did many atrocious deeds. But I never look at it as, "oh, one side was so bad, so they deserved when the other side screwed them up. They started it, so they deserved their population deserved to get it."
I was actually highly critical in my writings of the Japanese Imperial Army, and the weak and ineffectual civilian government that let it come to pass because of the way the Meiji constitution was written. I'm also highly critical of the way the U.S. handles itself, especially since I live here.
kitakaze wrote:
No shit "The Man." The Japanese Imperial Army did many atrocious deeds. But I never look at it as, "oh, one side was so bad, so they deserved when the other side fucked them up. They started it, so they deserved their population deserved to get it in the ass."
Whoa, whoa, what's with all the swearing?
Just had mention for some equal time, nothing wrong with that.
Geezer wrote:Not quite.
There was an interesting point in the program on PBS about Sugihara.
At the beginning of the Japanese Russian war, Japan couldn't find financing anywhere. They sent bankers and diplomats all over the world trying to find someone who would bankroll them.
They found a guy named Jacob H. Schiff, the senior partner of a Wall Street firm called Kuhn, Loeb & Co.
Schiff, an American Jew, was more than a little ticked off that there were still pograms going on in Russian at the turn of the 20th century. So he decided to bankroll the whole freakin' Japanese war effort.
And I'm talking to the tune of 200 mil at the turn of the century.
His one condition... Beat the hell out of the Russians.
The Japanese won. Schiff made back his investment and then some.
And that one investment, the first time a Wall Street firm had backed an international war, is credited with having shifted the center of international finance from the City in London, to Wall Street.
Point taken, Geez.
Maybe I shoulda qualified it and said "recent history"...
I'm not in that great of a mood today, hence the filter between my brain and my writing was thinner than usual. I edited out the swearing so people's eyes don't bleed so much.
If I were to look at your comment more rationally, with some of my historical training, I'd have to say:
No they weren't crying over it. They wanted to be a power like the United States, Germany, and Britain, which included the possession of colonies. They spent many years studying the British vs. French mode of colonization + their years of indoctrination via the use of symbolic imagery like cherry blossoms, the homogeneity of the Yamato people....
There were objectors, but those that had a conscience despite years of indoctrination usually kept quiet because of the penalties they my experience.
The issue is more complex than that, especially when you read the accounts of comfort women. A lot of Japanese soldiers were forced, physically and through intimidation to go through with that. The high-ups used many of the same psychological tactics on their own soldiers that they did on the Chinese and Korean people.
The United States' problem was it's virulent racism, even before World War II. No one could outdo the United States when it came to racist propaganda. The Japanese portraying the US soldier as a "beast" or "rapist monster" is nothing like US flyers saying "Alaska--Rat trap for the Japs" or of a bathing beauty in Life magazine holding a Japanese soldier's skull...which the Japanese propaganda department used to scare Japanese citizens.
Again, "War without Mercy" by John Dower is a good balanced book, as is "Kamikaze, Cherry blossms, and Nationalisms" by Emiko Tierney.
If I were to look at your comment more rationally, with some of my historical training, I'd have to say:
Was the Japanese Imperial army crying every day during their occupation in Manchuria?
No they weren't crying over it. They wanted to be a power like the United States, Germany, and Britain, which included the possession of colonies. They spent many years studying the British vs. French mode of colonization + their years of indoctrination via the use of symbolic imagery like cherry blossoms, the homogeneity of the Yamato people....
There were objectors, but those that had a conscience despite years of indoctrination usually kept quiet because of the penalties they my experience.
And I bet those female slaves that WWII Japanese soldiers enjoyed were no fun either.
The issue is more complex than that, especially when you read the accounts of comfort women. A lot of Japanese soldiers were forced, physically and through intimidation to go through with that. The high-ups used many of the same psychological tactics on their own soldiers that they did on the Chinese and Korean people.
The United States' problem was it's virulent racism, even before World War II. No one could outdo the United States when it came to racist propaganda. The Japanese portraying the US soldier as a "beast" or "rapist monster" is nothing like US flyers saying "Alaska--Rat trap for the Japs" or of a bathing beauty in Life magazine holding a Japanese soldier's skull...which the Japanese propaganda department used to scare Japanese citizens.
Again, "War without Mercy" by John Dower is a good balanced book, as is "Kamikaze, Cherry blossms, and Nationalisms" by Emiko Tierney.
Man, I hope they rebroadcast this program... I think it would be worth revisiting...
Like I said, check out the link... There's some really interesting/surprising insights and revelations...
Like I said, check out the link... There's some really interesting/surprising insights and revelations...
The Japanese portraying the US soldier as a "beast" or "rapist monster"
Hmm, interesting that I just came across this link today: Article about "Taken by Force" by Robert Lilly. Although that's about Europe, the claim is that the Americans in WWII did commit many rapes.
It seems to me that virtually all armies will commit depravities. So I feel that any decision to go to war needs to be extremely sound.
Take some violent men and get them to do some violent act and guess what you get violence. I almost every war there must be some sort of atrocities. The soldiers are trained to treat their enemies less than human, if not would it be so easy to kill. There is so much media nowadays that the American soldiers are being watched at every turn, in the past who knows what they were doing. Less face it war is ugly, and there is no other way to describe it.
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